SOLVED! Post 2853 Leaking Injectors, Dealer Techs Rock! Extended Cranking after Engine Swap 3.4L 5vz

Thanks K. We're scared, we're done for tonight. Although I really enjoyed your final sentence, fuking gibberishq switching to engrish, I like it!

 

Do you guys think if we did the above it would throw a code? More specifically, if it did throw a code, do you think that would erase data that could be valuable to our mechanic?

We are so uncertain about what to do next. We're definitely not driving the truck, probably not even starting it anymore. We have no clue when our mechanic will get back. Could be tomorrow, could be 2 weeks from now, no clue. But if his brother does pass, and if he's the closest of kin, I could see our mechanic being really tied up for a while with matters related to a close relative passing. And I think about how bad I felt before, calling him when he didn't call with an update when he said he would, and I'm certain that would be 1000 times worse even if he did get back tomorrow - you can't be questioning someone about how your truck is coming along when they are dealing with stuff like that!

Now back to being tempted to go to the dealer. At least now there's some data to go off of. But also terrified of burning a bridge with this awesome mechanic by going there. Assuming we ever make it past this f'ing issue, I'm pretty damn sure we'll be needing that guy again and again and again in the future. Also not excited about the dealer pricing either.

Good grief, why is this happening????????????????????????? Never a straightforward path to take on this road of misery - just more questions to answer.

We can't just let it sit out there, I feel like we have to make some kind of deadline for ourselves of going to the dealer if we don't hear from him by X date. Just not sure how to fill in the X.

EDIT: Attached is a pic of our throttle. The cables circled in red are very loose, they seem too loose to us. The cable circled in blue is very tight, it seems too tight to us. Mean anything to anyone?

 

Just got word from our neighbor, he said he heard that our mechanic's brother was taken off life support on Sunday. That is so sad.

He said he thinks we'll hear from him soon. But I'm just not sure about that route anymore - this poor guy is mourning! That takes some time. I don't know...........

Same neighbor has another buddy that runs an electrical place nearby, he said he wants us to hold off on the dealer at least until he talks to this guy about our situation.

Does this sound like it's for sure an electrical issue you guys? I've talked to this neighbor about that friend of his before, but I've hesitated because I wasn't sure if we even knew whether we're definitely dealing with electrical or not. ECMs, circuits, relays, sensors, wires.........all sounds pretty darn electrical to me. But what the hell do I know? What do you guys think, would you go to an electrical place at this point if you had an easy option to do so, that was likely gonna be less $ than the dealer?

And let me just add, in case anyone wasn't aware of this part yet.........would you go there to have your issue THAT WASN'T PRESENT PRIOR TO THE WORK PERFORMED BY THE ENGINE MECHANICS diagnosed and repaired?

 

everyone is different but going back to work helps when you are morning, it allows you to be distracted from dwelling on things and im sure they guy will want something to keep him busy for a while so don't go assuming anything and let him tell you if he is ready to jump right back into fixing your truck.

 

ok I guess I missed it (don't have time to keep up with this thread anymore lately) but based on your comment, I guess something was found to be dirty with the TB but heres a question.

shouldn't she redo all the intake connections and check the gaskets to see if this is an intake air leak? of have her mechanic redo it to be sure its all clean and sealing properly? just guessing here but it seams this guy did nothing but take things apart and put it back together still all dirty so I don't trust he properly cleaned sealing surfaces, do you ????

 

You are so deep into this there is no turning back....the VW I had that had an under dash fire, was a bugger like this, replaced every wire loom in da car, still wouldn't run, days of troubleshooting and nothing...

Finally, against my better judgement, I took it to the dealer, in 15 minutes they had it running...it was a wire that had a break in it...

While it would be nice if you solved the problem on your own, at this point the dealer might be needed for the last smidgen of help is my point....you would be on the road quickly...it means spending some more hard earned...sometimes you can't see the wall for the fog....

 

You don't have to unplug the sensor while the ignition is on -- unplug it first and then turn the ignition to ON to do the checks. It may throw a code, but it would probably be the same one, and it looks like you already captured the freeze frame info. You are just looking for proper voltage to the sensor, proper continuity to ground, and proper values coming from the sensor (which has somewhat been validated by the pedal test you already did).

So far, it seems that you have verified that the TPS is capable of working properly, but the question is whether it always works properly. Since it threw the code once, the ECM obviously thought the signal was out of the proper range at one point. That could mean the TPS has an intermittent issue, the wiring has an intermittent issue, or the ECM is messed up. Going through the FSM procedure helps you narrow that down.

As far as fail-safe mode, it looks like once it gets 2 good values from the TPS it will drop out of fail-safe.

 

Thanks TenBeers!

After talking more, here's the tentative plan for today:

1) I'm calling dealer parts to give them the part # off my "new" used MAF that magically appeared after the engine swap, to be certain it's even the correct part for our truck (dealer parts has mentioned a split in production for that part on 98s). I'll also run a fellow TW member's VIN by them to see if their MAF is compatible with our Taco, just to know for future should it come to needing that

2) Husband is going to do the test that Koditten recc' last night, with checking the wire to the TPS, he might also/instead check directly at the connector (I get confused about all that, he'll make the call)

3) DP pointed out that because we don't know exactly what intervals Scan Gauge takes readings of TPS, it's hard to be CERTAIN of the results on the pushing the pedal to the floor smoothly test til it reaches 75%. We were thinking, could we remove the air intake hose, leave the MAF plugged in, turn ignition to "on" and he watches the throttle plate open while I depress the pedal? To see up close if any sticking/weirdness. What do you guys think?

4) If step 1 determines that the existing MAF on our truck is NOT the correct one, guess who's going to finally get a nice sweet lovely call from yours truly? Don't worry, it'll be nothing but sugar and spice and kittens and puppies guys - I NEVER get angry, right?

5) If step 1 determines that it IS the correct MAF, I think we need to research more testing methods for it. We've done some stuff, but from reading about the code we got last night, it seems the MAF and TPS sort of work together, so I think I may have spoken too soon when I said we were ruling out MAF playing some part here. It kinda blows my mind to think that we will now stand on our heads to come up with ways to examine/test an MAF that shouldn't even be there in the first place, but I will now attempt to stop that rant before it goes any further.....

6) Decide/look into what Mod and Keakar touched on, and possibly remove TB and IAC valve to reclean/verify clean/lubed well, replace with NEW gaskets, etc - again, will now attempt to stop that rant before.............

7) More research! More forum input! More alcohol!

These are today's goals

Who's got a #8 for us? Who's got #9?

Let's go guys, it's a new day, time for a new false hope or 2 or 10!!!

 

#8 Track down a bottle of Buffalo Trace Single Barrel...

 

Got it, #8 just made it on the list! Thanks hetkind!

 

OK, step #1 checks out on all fronts. Meaning, the bad news is:

Assuming we are reading the part # correctly on our "new" used MAF, it is the correct one, split in production and all. The 3rd to last character on the part label is IMPOSSIBLE to read (gee, I guess it's pretty USED huh?) so can't be certain, but since all other numbers of the 10 digit part # check out, thinking it's a match.

This is bad news, not because I have a desire to go after someone for something shady, but because I was hoping it could be as simple as getting the right one on there.

But, the good news is:

Guess what beloved 98 Taco has an identical MAF to ours?

 

On #3: You could just use your hand to move the throttle mechanism open and closed and feel for any odd resistance or stickiness at any point, either opening or closing. You shouldn't have to take anything apart for that. The physical state of the valve itself would not throw a code, but it could affect operation. The code is thrown if the sensor value is below or above the normal range, which is a sensor or electrical issue, not a physical issue.

While doing that, you could move it in small increments, stop, and look at the TPS reading on the scangauge. It should register small changes but may take a second to update on the gauge.

Basically what I am saying is, first validate the mechanical operation of the throttle to make sure that isn't part of the hard-start issue. You still have the sensor/electrical issue to chase down, though, and that can be tricky.

 

DP, husband was reading about adjusting the position of the TPS last night, and noticed there is a line drawn on ours. Anyway, he read about messing with the 2 screws on it, or repositioning it or something. I told him I thought this might have been what you mentioned above (bolded part). But he wanted me to ask you anyway, just in case, so here's his question:

Can the TPS sensor be rotated to recalibrate it to our throttle plate?Thanks!

 

Thank you. So you're saying take off the air intake hose, then stick a hand inside the TB to move the plate itself? That pic I posted last night of the front of the throttle, where the cables come off of it - 2 of the cables seemed very loose, although we don't have a comparison to judge by what's normal. And one of them felt very tight, like it was difficult to move the lever it attaches to over. Actually, we did check out this same thing on our Civic and both felt like it moved much more smoothly/easily. Did you happen to notice that pic? Probably on the last page or so.

I like what you are saying though - verify the mechanical operation first. Makes sense. Thanks!

 

OK, there is a check you can do to ensure proper adjustment of the TPS. It looks like it requires a vacuum pump, the proper feeler gauges, and an ohmmeter. I found this on the AutoZone website, the adjustment procedure is at the bottom.

http://www.autozone.com/repairguide...-INJECTION/Throttle-Body/_/P-0900c15280060f7d

 

No, just grab the throttle mechanism where the cable attaches and pretend you are the cable pulling on it. No need to take anything apart. One cable connects to your pedal, and I *think* the other one is for cruise control. The cable may not want to push back into the housing easily, so it may be harder than I think it is.

 

Thanks Ten Beers, I'll show this to husband. I think I remember seeing something similar in the FSM, and I skipped over it when I saw we'd have to drain the coolant. We just did that this weekend to swap the thermostat, so I'm not sure if he'll be up for that fun time again. It's a real headache to do with our set up - we have like 5000 neighbors who let their multiple pets go loose, so we have all these cats and dogs hanging around the driveway, with pans of coolant all over. We try to explain to the neighbors, hey, could you maybe keep your pets in for a bit, we have coolant everywhere right now, and they just don't seem to get it. So we mumble under our breath, "hmm, we forget to construct a temporary fence around our f'ing driveway before starting this, what the hell is wrong with us!" Then I stand out there and dodge loose pets while he works.

See, don't you guys want to come work on our truck now? Paints a fun picture, doesn't it?

 

No, maybe no, and not very well. The Tb is one of the first critical pieces of the puzzle,,why reuse old gaskets on a $6000 rebuild?,,scarcity?,,don't think so. They make razor blades and gasket material all day long. This 1st mech takes zero pride in his work,,as evidence shows. Granted he had some pressure on him from the SLAVE DRIVER,,but it was minimal and restrained as per miss Jen and husband. Jen wants her cookie$ back.

A little redneck armour-all(wd40) on plastic pieces,,swiping off the firewall with some while the engine and pieces are out getting worked on,,cleaning the connections really good during that time,checking the condition of those, wiping off there insulation, ect. That sort of thing should have happened,,and it sure seems like it didn't. The easy pieces got all/some of the attention, and damn the rest. I allowed for bad light on the picture,,but when I can see standing dirt.


We don't have a house of crap mechanics here in the Pnw,,but it doesn't look to well when this sort of thing comes to light.

 

Slave driver?!? No way man! I'm calling you on that, joke or not.

The engine mechanic's words to me after the engine was in were, "you have been some of the easiest nicest customers to work with, so often people jump straight to blaming issues after the fact on us, but you guys haven't done that, and you even brought us goodies," etc etc etc. Guess that bolded part should have been a red flag, huh?

Pretty sure he said that to me when we were picking up the 2nd time, after they'd cleaned the IAC valve and told us the start issue was fixed. For the 2nd time. When it wasn't. Hell, I remember mentioning that on the thread, post # 8 zillion or something, about how cool it was that the engine mechanics loved us as customers. And at that point, we were still not allowing ourselves to even *go there* in our minds and believe the starting issue could be their fault in any way, and we were telling them that over and over. We wanted so badly to keep everything as positive and blame free and non accusatory as possible, thinking that was the best path for us to get them to help us and fix the issue, and we also wanted to believe they'd done everything right - why would we want to believe anything different, after just handing them that much money for something that major on our truck? So we kept telling them, "we don't think this is your fault, you guys are great, we appreciate you trying to solve this for us, we aren't blaming you," blah blah blah. And then that final call, when I was crying on the phone to the guy, telling him we didn't know what to do, we were probably going to take it to the dealer, or try to sell it, did he have any ideas, what did he think we should do, etc. And people who have been reading the thread already know what the response was. And then new mechanic calls us daily/every other day for the next 2 weeks with updates of the CRAP work he is discovering. Damaged parts, sloppy shortcuts, used parts put in in place of our original parts without telling us, on and on. So yeah, things have changed since that sweet little honeymoon phase. But we were over the top nice to those guys, probably too nice and too trusting, for a good long while into this whole thing.

Just wanted to set the record straight - slave driver is definitely not an accurate term, even by their definition.

Not pissy at ya Mod, just pissy at the situation. And yes, I want my cookies back damnit.

Mod, are you saying we shouldn't bother recleaning IAC valve & TB, and replacing the gaskets on them? I've read a few threads about how to do it, and it sounds like stuff we could handle, plus gaskets are cheap. Seems worthwhile to me, unless enough people on the thread are pretty darn confident it won't make a hill o' beans of difference based on all the factors in play.

Thoughts?

 

Yes, yes it can. I had my years mixed up plus the lack of your year FSM. Yours should be the same/very similar to the 95. If you need some busy work it would be cool if you could put up those pages from your 98 FSM or send them to me via PM.
Should you fool with it? Short answer no. Save the questions for your guy.
If you just can't resist, then go for it. FWIW I really doubt the adjustment is the sole problem and any changes you can make are subtle and should apply to all running conditions. Not just a hot start but it certainly could contribute to the "cumulative error" theory.
In all the FSM TPS test/adjustment pages they mention "apply vacuum to the throttle opener and check for bla bla bla". Sensing the potential for some humor I did some tests. It takes around 6 inHg of vacuum to actuate the opener. I can "just" actuate the opener sucking with my mouth. Some people suck more than others and here at 5K feet I have to suck less than folks at sea level.