SOLVED! Post 2853 Leaking Injectors, Dealer Techs Rock! Extended Cranking after Engine Swap 3.4L 5vz

You said it, some people definitely do suck more than others

Thanks for the info, I'm on a mission to find that FSM info, will post soon!

 

DP, I found it! Getting way too fast at this busywork, what else ya got?

 

A lot of thinking out loud here . . . sadly, I love puzzles and mechanical things and I'm in over my head here I think.

So the more I learn about this engine (I've had a couple, but never did any major work on them), it is apparent that proper vacuum is essential to various functions. Duh, it's been that way forever. For example, having to pull vacuum on the TB to do that TPS adjustment tells me that there's a vacuum circuit used to adjust the throttle position under certain conditions. Things like cold and warm starts would be different conditions.

First, you need good gaskets and seals for good vacuum, and you don't want any leaks at the vacuum connections. After that, the valves that actuate under different conditions need to be operating properly. And, of course, all the sensors (inputs) for proper engine management need to be working properly. Finally, the ECM has to be operating properly to control the various functions (outputs).

I am wondering if you can get it to throw that code again . . . maybe by jiggling the wire . . .

 

We did the tests on the MAF that are listed in the file titled: SF-29; those results checked out fine.

But I'm wondering if we should do the other things listed in the other 3 documents. I'll be honest, I've barely even glimpsed over these documents yet - but I wanted to put 'em out there then we can all read this extra exciting material at the same time!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it possible that the code for the TPS might not actually be the primary issue? Meaning, if we were to continue driving it, since the ECM's been reset and it's relearning all the sensors right now, that maybe another code, or even many more codes could come up in 5 or 10 or 100 miles from now, and those could actually be more directly linked with the true culprit behind the starting issue? But even if this is the case, we're not going to find out, because I am NOT driving it the way it is. When we did start it that one time last night to get it hot, it started great because it was cold, but it was idling like pure shit for that 10 min or so while it came up to temp. Super rough. Something is NOT right with that truck.

From what we read last night, the TPS and the MAF work together, and I know husband said he found at least a thread or two of Toyota owners who got the TPS code (P0120) like we did, then replaced the sensor and still had the problem. I think he was saying ultimately they wound up finding they had an issue with their MAF maybe? Not 100% on that, we'd been drinking

And from the research I've done, it seems kinda odd that an issue with the TPS would cause the starting issue by itself. You just don't find much on the web that links the two together.

OK, ready for everyone's wisdom - go!

EDIT: Sweet. Fed Ex just brought my now 4th coil pack that I no longer need, and that also wouldn't have fixed the problem. This day is really looking up! Hope you guys enjoy my sarcasm, something tells me there may be a steady stream of it, now that we can't even drive the damn thing anymore. That just takes it to a whole new level of fun times.

 

This is the freeze frame data that stored in Scan Gauge yesterday morning when we got the code P0120. This link explained what each PID code means: http://www.justanswer.com/car/6gv7v-codes-pid00-pid01-pid02-etc-mean-steve.html There were lots of other PID codes stored in the SG (PID00, PID01, PID08, etc - LOTS more of those), but none of those had an value next to them. These are all the ones that came up that did have values. My understanding is this info helps the technician who's troubleshooting the code by letting them know things like, was the vehicle hot or cold, driving or idling, etc when the code occurred.

PID02 = 0120 (freeze frame trouble code)
PID03 = 0100 (fuel system status)
PID04 = 37 (calculated load value %)
PID05 = 70 (coolant temp deg C)
PID06 = 80 (short term fuel % trim bank 1)
PID07 = 81 (long term fuel % trim bank 1)
PID0C = 06E0 (Engine RPM)
PID0D = 0 (Vehicle Speed km/hr)
PID0F = 43 (Intake Air Temp deg C)

OPEN LOOP
LOD = 21
WT = 161 (F)
RPM = 880
MPH = 0
IAT = 80 (F)

Anybody see anything that sticks out as a clue?

 

Just started it and messed around with Scan Gauge some. The AFR gauge starts at 11, then VERY SLOWLY climbs to 14.7, which is the number it's supposed to be at. I realize more fuel is dumped in initially on a cold start, but watching HOW SLOWLY that number climbs from 11 to 14.7, it really seems to me that there's too much fuel there when it's started.

Now I wish I had a recent, accurate comparison on a hot start of where the AFR gauge value sits initially, and how long it takes to climb to 14.7. But I'm not starting it hot anymore, too scary to wonder what's happening.

Idled like shit again.

 

Make sure gas tank and filler neck don't have any rust holes in them.

 

Well, that's it guys. We should know tomorrow morning. Dealer appt at 8:20am with their best guy. I can't take it anymore. Gotta do it. Not canceling this time no matter what. Time to start working on notes for the appt. Wish us luck. Thanks for all your help.

 

I do have two questions though, more of give me your opinion stuff:

1) Do you think it'd be better to give the Toyota tech ALL of the details, or just the basics? Meaning, obviously I'd want to at least tell him stuff like, our ECM was reset ~1 week ago, we got a code, excessive crank time on hot starts, not an issue prior to engine swap, these parts have been replaced in effort to fix. But all the other stuff, like testing that's been done by us and our mechanic, damaged parts that have been found, the mysterious MAF that is not the same one we had before, etc. I want him to have all the clues that might help, and yet I don't want to steer his thought process to chase something incorrectly, know what I mean?

2) Koditten said he thought we were in "fail safe mode" right now. Think we should have it towed there? It's about 20 miles from home. We could take back roads to keep our speed down. I know it will start just fine early in the AM, so I guess my concern with driving it is the rough idle, whatever the fail safe mode means, and not knowing what the heck is wrong so therefore having no clue if we are damaging something every single time it's been driven since the day we 1st picked it up from those WONDERFUL SUPER QUALIFIED ENGINE MECHANICS.

Opinions greatly appreciated - I promise no one will be blamed if you give us bad advice on these topics, these are strictly opinion, what would YOU do type questions.

 

I say figure out a way to "take it" and wait for your guy. If you do the dealer thing then give them all the details on paper and stress the time element when the problem happens. Watch the time when you arrive and suggest the tech start the diagnostics when you feel enough time has elapsed. Time is money.

If you have no P0120 you should not be in fail safe mode. If you were you would know it by the way it was running (poorly across the board).

I have a hunch, easy to check and free. Go to page SF-32 step #4. Do that simple test. The "throttle opener" allows the throttle to stay open a bit when the engine is off and your not touching the gas. This is entirely related to starting the engine. When the engine starts and vacuum develops (very quickly) the "opener" closes the throttle and allows regular idle speed appropriate to the engine temp.
If that "opener" is not working, the engine is not getting enough air at start up. It will also be telling the ECM to deliver slightly less fuel but I would think the lack of "air" available would be more critical.
This would seem to go with "starts right up with the throttle held open".
Don't get too excited, it's just a hunch but really worth a try. Don't worry about the part that says "replace the throttle body". It could be just a 50 cent split vacuum hose.

 

I was wondering the same thing. I was looking at my 1998 throttle assemble today as well. That little bell shaped thing should be opening that throttle a but on warm starts. Inspect the hose that feeds it closely.

 

It's on my 99 as well and entirely vacuum dependent so the action should occur at all starts. I'm thinking it might have more effect on hot starts. I really did do the vacuum test with a pump/gauge and "orally". Easy to see the throttle close, about 1/16" or so (guess).

It doesn't account for the half hour (or what ever it was) wait time for the bad start. Unless there is some "ventilation" thing going on in the manifold from fumes seeping in from a funky evap system. Thinking out loud here.

 

To get the P0120 code, the ECM saw a voltage value coming from the TPS that was outside the valid range, plain and simple -- either too low or too high. There could be multiple causes, which the FSM guides you through to validate sensor, wiring, and ECM itself. So whatever caused that needs to be addressed.

I would clear the code, and if it doesn't throw the code again, it should be fine to drive. The manual stated that 2 consecutive "good" values will take it out of safe mode, and that should happen very quickly (sub-second) if no code is thrown. Plus, the ScanGauge test with the pedal passed, so you know it works most of the time.

Give the dealership all the background and info, including the codes. It runs, for the most part, so it is REALLY close to being a reliable truck again. I have to think it is something very simple but obscure.

 

Thanks guys.

 

I think she's given up.

P0120 is for open/short TPS circuits or TPS itself.
P0121 is for TPS out of range.
I thought I read that the P0120 cleared itself already.

 

Honestly, I think I do just need to give up period though. I mentally cannot deal with the ups and downs anymore, it's been going on FAR TOO LONG. I really am so grateful for you guys trying so hard to help us though - it's seriously generous.

 

honestly jen I think you did all you could so someone else will have to find it for you if your mechanic isn't ready to work on it anymore

 

Just popping in to get things clarified a little here...

That is not actually true. Just because the CEL is on, it does NOT mean you automatically go into failsafe mode. For instance a P0456 code for an EVAP fail will not engage FS mode, but it still turns on the CEL.

That bell thing that you are talking about that has a vacuum hose attached to it is NOT used to press the accelerator. It is used to prevent the engine from stalling out when you are driving along and then suddenly take your foot off the accelerator. Because when you take your foot off, if the throttle plates close to the normal idle position too quickly, it will choke out the engine. So that lever lifts out to stop the throttle body from closing, then eases it down. That is why your engine doesn't drop down to the normal 800RPM that it sits at for idle when you take your foot off the accelerator.

Don't give up Jen! You keep wanting to but don't. It is a rough road, but it will be worth it in the end. I promise.

 

Don't miserate in it Jen. Break time. Time out.

Wait for mech 2 to check back in. He has thought about you guys.

 

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