SOLVED! Post 2853 Leaking Injectors, Dealer Techs Rock! Extended Cranking after Engine Swap 3.4L 5vz

TPS replaced. No change with starting issue. We were told the code was cleared, but it is still present, and still idling rough. Good times.

Please, no mean comments or smart ass jokes right now. Depressed.

 

gotcha, just trying to lighten your mood

just for FYI jen, keep this thread in mind
http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/1st-gen-tacoma-marketplace/360533-fs-5vz-fe-part-out-prices-listed-parts-chesapeake-va.html

because I saw you had questions about your wiring and not sure what came out of that discussion.

while I was looking for stuff for my truck I found this guy has the complete under hood wiring harness for your truck and he is asking $100 so if you feel you might need it, you now know about it.

 

I would buy this ^, very likely you have a shorted wire and its 10x easier to swap it than try to chase a short.$100 is really a small price to pay for one. If needed you can install it in an afternoon... If it doesnt fix your problem you can resell yours on here or ebay and always get your $$ back... There are alot of people doing 5vz swaps out there.

 

I've been thinking about the wire harness as well.

Using my imagination, I've been thinking about what to do with the wire harness when an engine is removed/replaced.

The entire harness will be disconnected at every connection. Once free of the engine, the harness must be moved out of the way for the engine to come out. I would think the harness would be flopped to the back and side of the engine compartment. My thoughts are what would be the most stressed point?

My point that would have the most stress would be the very large part of the harness that immediately exits the fire wall. i wonder if we have a bad wire/wires at this point in the harness?

The symptoms remind me of troubles that Dodge Durangos' had with their wire harnesses. A very common problem with those trucks. I can remember many people would grab that harness and shake the piss out of the harness and the truck would run normal.

Maybe start your truck and grab this harness and start wiggling it around and try to notice if there is any change in the sound of the engine. Cheap and easy and quick.

Let us know

KO

 

Was the donated Ecu put in yet? or tried?.

 

i asked him in the thread for the year and model it was from so just double check its the correct one she needs guys, i don't know if all the wiring harness are the same but it looks like that's going to be what she needs.

i also agree with you guys that it sounds like they most likely pulled on, stepped on, or pinched some wires in doing the engine swap.

 

Thanks you guys. Really nice of all of you to keep trying to help us, appreciate it a ton. K, wiggling wires is definitely something we can do. Will very likely try this. Keakar and Knuckle, thanks for the input on the wiring harness, will keep it in mind.

Mod, ECM was reset just before our mechanic left, and he left on 2/3. It has not been replaced - we have our donor (thank you!) but our mechanic instructed us to do nothing but drive a lot and change oil/filter while he was gone. Then he planned to retrieve as much data "clues" as possible when he got back, after all that driving while the computer relearned the sensors - he hoped for codes.

We were 100% on board with that plan til it lurched Friday and was idling super rough. At that point we felt we couldn't safely drive it - we didn't know what was happening. So we monkeyed around all weekend - oil/filter, plugs/plug wires/coil packs, thermostat. Then we drove ~30 miles Sunday evening, close to home (still nervous) but picked a smooth, high speed road. Seemed to do very well that whole time - no weird idle, no lurching.

Monday I think I was still nervous to drive it by myself after how bad it was Friday, so I think we just started it a few times in the evening or something.

Tuesday morning was the first CEL/code P0120 for TPS. Pretty sure we woke the entire neighborhood (it was at like 6 or 7am) screaming with joy, "WE GOT A CEL, WE GOT A CEL, WE GOT A CODE, WE GOT A CODE, P0120, P0120!!!!!!!!!!!"

Tues & Wed nights, we did a handful of tests at home that made sense in relation to that code, but ultimately didn't get any crystal clear indication of a specific part to replace/investigate from our limited diagnostics.

But meanwhile the rough idling continued (and of course the starting issue), and therefore the fear of driving it continued. And that's where things really take a mental nosedive for me. Seeing my truck that I love so much sitting out there in the driveway, knowing how much time and money and effort have been spent on it in the last 3 months, yet feeling unsafe/unsure about driving it 5 miles to take my dog to the park, or to swing by the library. That is where things really turn south in my head, and it just doesn't make sense to me - like, why the flying fuck can't anybody (ourselves included) figure out WTF is wrong and fucking fix it??? Pretty much anything and everything is fixable if you're willing to pay enough, and we don't have a choice anymore, our ONLY option is to fix it because we've already spent so much - there is NO other way outta this.

So that's where we decided to go to the dealer. Felt like, if we can't drive it with no fears the way it is, we can't even accomplish the goal that our mechanic wanted us to - he wanted us to drive at least 200-300 miles, many of them highway miles above 55mph, and we've barely done any of that.

Unfortunately, we didn't gain much from the dealer appt. We didn't lose much either - they wound up waiving the $110 diagnostic hour fee. Essentially, the service adviser told me they pulled codes (the one that was already up on Scan Gauge), duplicated the issue (started the truck), and reviewed our notes (must not have been too thorough in the reviewing, based on conversations after). And based solely on the code (no testing), they recc' a new TPS, which they said would probably have no impact on the starting issue. For that, they recc' checking fuel pressure for an additional $188 and pulling injectors for an additional $300 or so. So I asked why more testing and diagnostics were not done in the 1 hour $110 diagnostic appointment, beyond just checking codes, duplicating issue, reviewing notes. He waived the $110. Which is great that we're not paying for that, but what I really wanted was to pay them $110-330 to do the testing we aren't comfortable/equipped to do that they recc, whether it's checking fuel pressure for a 3rd time, or noid lighting the injectors, or whatever. Just didn't really accomplish much.

So they did replace the TPS (throttle position sensor). Then they told my husband, and wrote on the paperwork that they'd cleared the DTC (code P0120).

I assume they would do that for two reasons, please tell me if I'm wrong/right:

1) to take you out of any potential fail safe mode you'd be in

2) to allow the ECM to recognize that the sensor was replaced

True? False?

Reason we really want to know is because the code it still there, and it's still idling like shit. We don't want to clear the code as far as our mechanic is concerned, but if that's what has to happen for the above 2 reasons, so that then we can go back to putting miles on it, that seems worth clearing the code. Because at least when we're driving it and getting up to 55+mph, it seems we have a better chance of getting a code, and how great would it be if we could get one that explains the f'ing starting issue. And we have all the PID code info (the temps, RPMs, etc that were present when the code was set) written down for our mechanic to see in conjuction with the code itself - so I'm totally up for clearing it if it will allow us to resolve the rough idle/fail safe stuff in order to drive it, knowing we've got all the info associated with the code recorded to give to our mechanic.

Husband was going to call dealer this morning and ask to speak to the tech who told him codes were cleared to ask these questions, but I'm not holding my breath - that place is huge and busy, and whoever answers will see that our dx fee was waived, and I suspect he'll have a hell of a time getting connected to the tech.

Anyone know? Should we clear the code to let the ECM recognize the new sensor? Would that in theory clear up the rough idle (assuming a faulty TPS was the cause of it)?

Here's my other main question/topic - isn't it possible that rather than the injectors themselves, or the ECM itself being bad, that instead the problem is in the wiring/connections TO the injectors?

If memory serves correctly, when our mechanic did the noid light the first time and said they were getting no voltage during excessive crank time, that was BEFORE he replaced the cam and crank sensors. Then when he did noid light 2nd time, it was AFTER those were replaced, and the light was very bright - too much fuel going in. Think replacing those sensors played a part in the results being so different the 2nd time?

And to me, both noid light test results sound more like a wiring thing rather than an injector thing. Just doesn't make sense that we could have issues with our injectors again after supposedly being serviced twice. I realize they aren't new, so no guarantees, but this most recent time they were done by an experienced pro who is known for great quality in this field.

And yet the symptoms of the warm start issue totally fit with leaky injector(s). So couldn't it be wiring to the injectors malfunctioning?

If so, any idea how the hell you test that, or what the fix is? Would that be whole new wiring harness time, or can you just replace the wires to the injectors, or ?????????? I scoured all of the SFI documents in the FSM and can't find anything that describes testing those wires - just stuff on testing the injectors themselves.

EDIT: One other thing - neighbor said our mechanic's brother's funeral is this weekend, so I would guess he'd be back sometime mid next week maybe. Neighbor's dad and the mechanic are best buddies since little kids, so neighbor's dad has talked to him a few times, and apparently he mentioned something about switching our ECM on a recent phone call with him. So you guys are all totally right, he is thinking about us and the truck, even with what he's dealing with. I just hope he understands why we went to the dealer and isn't offended. He's just too darn nice to not understand though. Thinking about him coming back soon definitely puts my mind at ease - if anyone can figure it out, he can.

 

So, you haven't replaced the ECM? Unplug the battery, pull the kick panel (if that's where it is) and change it.

 

Sorry this may have been obviously covered but has the MAF sensor been replaced? I don't mean cleaned but replaced with a new one. My 2000 Corolla suddenly developed hard starts and overall ran like shit when my MAF sensor went bad at 60k miles.

 

Thanks c3rolling, no apology needed at all - too much info on here! We haven't replaced the MAF, but we did do some testing on the MAF ~1 week ago, and the test results were normal. We could by an MAF for $105 (just the sensor, not the housing) but I don't want to spend another 100 bucks unless we're pretty damn sure it's the fix, or at least definitely for sure in need of replacing due to being faulty. I hear ya though, even the FSM says don't clean it, replace it if in doubt. Husband said dealer tech told him last night that MAF was fine, but after talking more it seems there were some miscommunications between them on other stuff, plus I have no clue if that tech did tests or what he's basing his "its fine" opinion on, so not ruling out faulty MAF yet, for sure. Maybe we'll see if there are other tests we can do on it.

Steve, thanks for the advice, but we're not comfortable switching ECM til our mechanic is back and makes that call.

Wanted to also let all of you guys know about some AFR gauge stuff I've noticed -

- Perfect number is 14.7 - not too lean, not too rich of an air fuel ratio at 14.7 - that's the "just right" number

- When started cold, number is very low, like 11 (too rich), then it takes a long long time to climb to 14.7 - longer than what seems normal

- Last night, after husband brought home from dealer, we tried a 30 min start, just in case new TPS made some difference w/starting issue (not realizing code was still there at that point). AFR number was high, ~16 (too lean), and we let it run for at least 5-10 minutes - and it never made it down to 14.7, the lowest it ever got was 15.7, and it stayed there for so long that we finally just got scared and shut it off. Too lean too long = piston holes.

I know extra fuel is delivered when cold, and the opposite is true when warm, but I'm telling you, after watching that gauge enough times over the past weeks/months, something is different or getting worse in terms of running too lean for too long when started hot and running too rich for too long when started cold. I feel like it's just gotta be something malfunctioning with the fuel delivery to the injectors. I don't know.

Husband tried to call dealer tech to ask about clearing codes. Surprise, they wouldn't connect him. He left a message. I'm gonna try to call a guy that runs an auto electrical place and ask him about clearing the code - can't hurt anything to try, and the guy is buddies with the same neighbor that hooked us up with our mechanic, so hoping he'll be willing to give us a little free phone advice.

 

jen, just FYI about the codes (and im certainly no expert on them) but CEL codes will reset and go off on their own if the problem is fixed and it is reading normal over several driving cycles. my false EGR code (crossed vacuum lines when I cleaned the TB) took about a week to finally go away but in that time I only drove it about 200 miles.

the reason I mention it is AFAIK the CEL will reset by itself if left alone after the problem was fixed, last time I went get one checked the guy at autozone said they are prevented from resetting codes for you because it can be a "safety issue" but if you buy your own scanner you can reset it yourself lol.

I know this is a 4 letter word but if you buy a scanner tool you can read and rest any codes you have now or in the future so its a nice tool to have and I don't thing they are a lot of money, I just would defer to others for a recommended one to buy since you don't want to overspend or buy cheap crap either.

EDIT: something like this is what i had in mind http://www.ebay.com/itm/U581-Profes...1566658857&pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&vxp=mtr

 

Doesn't she have a Scangauge, which can read and reset codes....

 

i dunno, she had some sort of gage installed but if she cant reset codes herself then maybe she still does need a code scanner tool

the way this thread is going its hard to remember everything and its like a never ending soap opera we are all so invested in that its part of our daily lives now like a member of the family.

i keep waiting to hear the theme music for "and those are the days of our lives" when i pull up the TW website

 

Yes. And there's an option to clear the code, super easy, and we are very tempted to do it, in hopes that doing it would allow the ECM to recognize the new TPS, and in hopes that the new TPS would correct the lurching/rough idle, plus in case there's any harm in driving it with the code present and therefore possibly being in a fail safe mode.

Our mechanic told us to just keep driving it even if CEL came on, and not to clear codes. So I realize what we're contemplating here is completely the opposite of what he told us to do. But with the lurching/rough idle we've been having, I don't feel OK driving it, and he wanted us to drive it as much as possible. We have all the PIDs related to the code written down, so I think/hope this is all he would need even if the code was cleared, and I'd think he'd understand why we would clear it, assuming we're correct in thinking that clearing it would allow it to drive better and therefore allow us to keep driving it - in hopes of getting more codes that might actually point to the cause of the starting issue.

 

Keakar, I know you are just being funny, and I appreciate that. I gotta say though, right now I am not in the mood for jokes about the drama of the whole thing. I know I'm the one that's made those very same jokes myself before, so I don't blame you at all for making them now - I'm sure you are thinking it'll make me laugh/cheer me up, but I am just so past that point now - I'm seriously depressed over the whole thing, so please, no more jokes about soap operas and stuff. At least not right now. Maybe I'll feel more up for them later on - just not right now, OK buddy? Thanks.

 

Keaker:

She has a ScanGaugeII. She can reset codes at will. These are very good, basic scan tools.

I would go ahead and clear the codes, but if the truck is running like shit, they will come right back.

You can do several scans, have you done another since you got your first codes? I'm sure the dealer would have done a separate scan, then again, those ass clones just "phoned it in"

Another free check if you are willing. You were mentioning that the AFR readings were erratic. On your charcoal canister there is one rubber line that just goes into the inside of the fender. This is the atmospheric vent for the charcoal canister. This is so the canister does not get put under vacuum when the un-burnt fuel vapors get pulled back into the engine on the next start up. Make sure this line is not plugged. It just goes into the inside of the fender and is a place for the canister to get atmospheric air.

I don't have an exact location of that hose, at work and away from my truck, but I bet you can find it pretty quick with your FSM or looking at the truck.

I don't think its the issue, but its free, so why not.

 

wouldn't she be able to record or print out everything its reading and then reset it? this should eliminate losing anything her mechanic might be wanting to see and take care of her desires to reset it? anyway im leaving this in you guys hands

jen, that's how i deal with life, i joke about sad stuff because all you can do is laugh or cry so i refuse to make myself ill being down so i turn to levity to release frustrations on things we cant control.

its just me and i cant control it, its how i live and who i am so i will just step aside

 

Speaking of that AFR gauge;

This thing was installed while the engine was getting changed, true?

Disconnect the thing. The coincidence is too great. I need to know that gauge is not corrupting with the data the ECU is getting.

I see thing like these occur when people install after market alarm systems on their vehicles. Let make sure we can eliminate that gauge as causing troubles.

 

Thanks K, we will definitely look at this tonight.

I left a message for my neighbor to see if he was OK with me calling his buddy at the auto electrical place and name dropping to ask some questions. Didn't feel right to take advantage of that without his OK first.

Dealer still hasn't called my husband back. Shocker, right?

I'm gonna call the guy that did our injectors last - he was so super nice and willing to explain lots of stuff to us when we picked them up a few weeks ago, so I figure no harm in trying to pick his brain regarding the noid light results, possible wiring/ECM issues causing injectors to fail repeatedly, etc.

My husband called a different auto electrical place very close to home, and also right across from our library. They said the starting issue sounded to them like our starter is going out, and that they would test our starter circuit for free - which is the 1st item listed to check in FSM when you are having hot start issues. I'm 99% sure our mechanic already checked this and verified it's OK, but ya never know - not doubting his work AT ALL, but if I've learned one thing since this all started, it's that things can fail when they are hot but be OK when they are cold. Pending how the injector call goes, I may drive down there and let them do whatever free testing they can while I hang out at the library.

K, just saw your last post - AGREE 1000%. We keep meaning to do exactly that, then we get sidetracked with some other test/theory and forget. DOING THAT TONIGHT. Writing a note and sticking it in the middle of my monitor, so I'm FORCED to remember. I would gladly toss that overpriced piece of shit in the garbage if it would fix this issue.

EDIT: Plus, my husband noticed the O2 sensor right next to that gauge (both on the tailpipe) is missing a screw - supposed to have 2, but only has 1. No clue if that is a big deal or not, but ya never know, plus seems easy/cheap to correct....was gonna make a few calls to see about costs for replacing the sensor itself vs finding the right screw/bolt.

 

It's nice to see the dancing taco. My work has been absolute shit for the last 2 days.

Kinda like picking up a smiling baby. You can't but help smiling, even tho the kid could be shitting himself, its still worth it to pic up the baby.

KO