$15k Buildup Recommendations for Security Contract

Thanks. I'll check them out.

 

Thanks! I think I remember seeing that website in one of my searches. Seems related to this "overland" word that keeps popping up. I'll poke around over there as well.

 

wait hold on...
you need 4 road trucks preferably toyota you have a set budget
you have all the bullet proof stuff and you are asking a group of off road guys how to build your trucks...
and you have connections in the middle east and talk about how the toyota is the truck of choice over there????

I am sorry any one that works for a private security group doesn't talk about it espesially on an open forum....

 

Hmmm.. that's a good point. I honestly don't know much about who would be operating this. You'd think there would be more detail in the contract listing on what they want since they'll be driving them!

After I read that some Tacomas were being used in the Middle East, I figured it would be a good candidate. Do you think it's too small and we should instead look at mid/large size trucks?

 

We don't have a preference towards manufacturer at this point -- I just was the guy on my team who volunteered to look at the Tacoma.
If we get selected to provide the trucks, we're only the sub-contractor. The listing states that they (the company wanting to purchase the trucks) have their own internal team for protection outfitting since they have their own safety and assurance requirements to meet.

I don't have connections to the middle east... a friend of mine (who recommended I come to this website) is the one who told me that Tacomas had been used over there and when I googled it there seemed to be some internet chatter supporting that. Maybe I didn't say that really clearly in my orginal post.

Anyway, to clarify: we are not the security firm. I'm part of a fleet & logistics company that provides vehicle solutions to a fairly wide variety of customers (freight and port operations companies, mining firms, etc). This private security contract we're trying to bid on is actually new territory for us, hence my (likely obvious) lack of knowledge in this area :-(

 

This is strongly application dependent. A bunch of civis wandering along the US border all day? Yeah comfort probably matters. Some SOCOM guys god knows where? No, comfort does not matter. In fact, many consider constrained space a good design element for an APC or other armored troop transport - you want the occupants to consider the outside full of flying lead to be preferable to the confined space of the safe interior of the APC

Also, overseas large trucks stand out and the wheelbase not appropriate for the local roads - hence all the SOCOM Tacomas and Hiluxes. In the US, again not really a problem.

 

Define this better, does this mean the vehicle can't high center on a 18 inch rock or wall?

Tacoma's will not do that reliably without a lot of maintenance and annoying modifications. A snorkel for the air intake is only part of the problem (and most "snorkels" offered are not water tight anyway and are only meant to reduce dust ingestion). The ECU is low and will need to be waterproofed. There is plenty of other electrical down low as well. The rear diff breather can be raised easily, but not any of the other breathers. Again, you could ignore that and you'll just contaminate your fluids and increase how often they must be replaced. You will completely shatter the fan blades and the blades may then damage the radiator if the fan turns on when in water or just as common the fan is already on and when the nose dips into the water on a steep entry it shreds then. You can install an electric fan that can be operator controlled, but then the operator needs to be trained to operate it on fording and the fan needs to be water proof.

Bottom line, Tacoma's and deep water don't mix well on regular basis. In a pinch, sure you'll probably make it across three feet of water if the driver knows what they are doing and the truck has some preparation. Do it every day and it won't be long until you have a dead Tacoma.

No way once you add all the weight and lift you are talking about. Maybe if you restricted it to 45 mph... If you can extend the range by putting a 20L fuel can then no problem. Also, a company in Australia makes an extended range tank for the Tacoma but there is no US distributor so you have to import yourself.

That's a spec open to wide interpretation.

No Hilux for you And limited diesel options in midsize right now.

Don't think this is an issue. Modifications may increase the amount or cost of routine maintenance, but shouldn't inhibit it.

Really, this really comes down to interpretation of the specification and the end application. As we know, lots of Tacomas and Hiluxes used in mean nasty places by troops that grossly overload them.

Oh - and armor. That can get really, really, REALLY heavy fast. Tacomas are not known for their payload. If we were talking about armor beyond small caliber hand guns and anything that provides any protection at all from an IED then I really don't think a Tacoma would be my choice. The SOCOM folks in Hiluxes and Tacomas I think are running pretty much naked armor wise - they are looking for speed, agility and a relatively low profile. Look at vehicles that people are driving around in cities in convoys and those things are incredibly heavy. Actual effective armor weighs a lot - a whole lot.

As others pointed out, you definitely want to look at the ExpeditionPortal forums.

Best of luck!

 

You could shave a little off the truck cost by going with a lower trim level. I've noticed the big part of the TRD packages is the suspension, which would be replaced by a mid travel setup anyway.

 

Both are an option. You could look into swapping a larger tank in from another Toyota vehicle (Hilux or 4runner? I forget what capacity Hilux has, I think 4runner is 23 gal.) or go the aftermarket tank route and get a larger one designed to fit to the factory mounts. Auxiliary tank route means sticking another few gallons in near your main tank if you can fit it, once the main tank drops below 1/4 tank the Aux. will flow into it.

Curious, does the range stipulation allow for jerry cans or is it tank only?

 

I don't have any first hand experience, but to me an Aux tank would make more sense than a larger single tank. I would think you would run into restrictions trying to fit a bigger tank under there, and you could add a full size aux tank to give you 42 gallons at your disposal.

As far as everyting else, I'd say focus on the suspension..to not high-center on 18" you'd need some pretty big tires (probably about a 35" if my math is right), and it'd have to be able to hold the weight of the armor. I'd look into some of the higher quality mid-travel setups. There are a ton of different choices for armor but keep in mind there are also aluminum bumpers out there that will save a lot of weight, though they aren't as strong. All the armor you'd need (bumpers, sliders, full skids) could probably be had within a $3000-4500 range depending on brands and options.

also, not the exact same, but this may help with some ideas:

https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/one-of-the-rarest-tacomas.325423/#post-8533928

 

Here is a truck Camburg built for some wildlife rangers in Russia.
https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/mother-russia-camburg-tacoma-build.193391/#post-4201548

 

Thanks for the long reply. Our reading of the listing is that it would 18 inches anywhere under the vehicle, as in obstacles. Can't imagine they mean going over an entire 18 in wall! I'll clarify with them.

Wow... I didn't realize all that goes into protection against water. 3 feet sounded pretty high to me as well.
I'm going to bring this up tomorrow. I didn't have a copy of the listing when I wrote my first email so maybe I fat-fingered the 3.

I don't think it's an issue to mount a few fuel cans in order to meet the range requirement. I am beginning to suspect the security company went a bit aggressive on the listing... I will look into the bigger fuel tank though.

It's a US firm and from when reading through the listing last week, this is definitely something that would stay within the States... so I would hope IEDs aren't a factor! Light/mobile is what they're looking for. It sounds like some of the armor options for the Tacoma include aluminum? If so, that would be quite a bit ligther than steel.

 

Great point. The "TRD Off Road" package was just a starting point but if we end up replacing the suspension than it certainly doesn't make sense to waste money on the initial purchase. Thanks.

 

Thanks a lot! Is there a particular auxillary tank you can recommend I look at? Any particular "mid-travel" options/manufacturers you can recommend?
Sorry to ask some lame follow up questions but this unfortunately not my comfort zone -- I normally just do port and mining type solutions where we add decals and computer systems into the interior of various vehicles. This security contract my division is trying to go after is cool, but I'm honestly not even sure we should be doing it. I'm trying my best, though!

 

I don't remember there being any mention of jerry cans not being allowed -- I need to bring a copy of the listing home with me tomorrow so I can have it on hand when I check this forum. I think it just gives the range requirements and that's it. Sounds like fuel cans or a small auxillary tank would be the easiest/cheapest solution since multiple folks in thread are concerned about meeting the range once weight is added. Thanks!

 

Was just using a "wall" as an example of something that would high center a vehicle. When someone says "clearing an obstacle" that is a usually a bit different than "ground clearance". Technically "ground clearance" is the lowest point on the vehicle, which is usually a differential and on the Tacoma would be like 9" stock. But the differential is usually irrelevant to clearing an obstacle since you drive over obstacles with your wheels which also lifts the differential. So usually the limitation is something in the center of the vehicle between the front and rear wheels. Getting hung up there with a narrow but tall obstacle is called "high centering". I think the lowest point in that region is an exhaust cross over and that can be easily relocated to help a little. Anyway, just try to understand what exactly they mean by 18 inch obstacle.

Toyota basically says the truck is good for crossing water up to the center of the wheel hubs. People do much deeper, but it requires skill. If you go at the right speed you create a bow wave which moves the water away from the truck. If however you get stuck along the way for whatever reason and the water all comes sloshing back to the truck well things can get ugly fast. Do a little searching here and you'll see lots of examples of people totaling or near totaling their trucks on water not super deep.

OK, sounds like light arms protection. And may just mean having doors with some armor in them so occupants can duck behind or open the door to use as a shield when firing (I believe some police vehicles are like that). I don't personally know much about armoring a vehicle beyond seeing the suspensions on seriously up-armored SUVs and trying to open their doors which are insanely heavy but complete overkill for this application. I'm guessing aluminum and Kevlar for this. This must be a solved problem for trucks and vans that collect cash from businesses to take to the bank, presumably you don't need to reinvent the wheel here.

 

My thoughts exactly

 

^^ pretty good place to start.

being able to take 3 feet of water in a second gen tacoma might be hard with how bad the door seals suck...... they let water in pretty bad....

Like already said, you really need to figure out how much weight the vehicle will be holding as that will ultimately say what is needed on the truck.

suspension:
a good midtravel suspension, camburg, icon, or total chaos upper control arms. maybe get a balljoint style for less maintance.
get a fox, king, icon, sway away coil over, and then you can put custom springs on them to handle the weight the truck is planning to carry.
for the rear, again it depends how much weight you need to carry. maybe some all pro expedition leaf springs with a 2.0 fox shock. those leafs have a 3 inch lift with like 500 lbs in the bed.

Gusset the spindles, the cam tabs, and id gusset the UCA pivot points as well.
if your going to have alot of weight in the bed. you better box the rear of the frame so it doesnt bend under hard abuse.

to go 300 miles, you will likely need a bigger fuel tank. you can get decently priced guel cells from JAZ.

i would also regear the differentials to 4.56, and put an arb locker in the front.
the rear already has a locker stock, so you are fine with that.

to forge water:
snorkle for the intake.
front differential breather
rear differential breather
transmission and transfercase breathers
make sure all electrical is heat shrinked.

after all bumpers and skid plates needed, that should be around 15k. and IMO the best you can get for the money.

• must be capable of clearing obstacles 18 inches high

• must be capable of fording 3 feet of water

• must be capable of 300 miles range on open & improved roads

• must be capable of 100 miles range on rough terrain

• must meet all federal emmissions requirements

• must not be equipped with any modifications that prevent or inhibit routine maintenance

 

ARB air lockers front and rear. Re-gear to 4.56 or 4.88 front and rear to account for the larger tires and up-armor weight.

Full length skids. Bud built is a good place to start. Depending on your up-armor this may or may not be covered.

31's or 33's if you must. Lower is better with up-armored vehicles, otherwise they tend to end up on their roofs...

You're going to need a fuel cell to get that kind of range in a built Tacoma.

Reliable suspension system such as OME. With armor, lower is better - for center of gravity.

Winches front and rear.

Lightweight rear bumper. Front bumper capable of protecting the vehicle during light vehicle rams / breaching. Don't know the purpose of this vehicle but I will tell you that an armored vehicle breaches a gate a hell of lot faster than a hooligan bar...

Having spent a lot of time in armored vehicles, please do not leave the radio mounts and BFT/JCR mount as an after thought. Build that shit into the dash. I'm 6'0'' and when wearing a plate carrier and carrying a rifle the last thing I want is to hop into a truck and have a radio jabbing into my left side and a BFT screen blocking half of my view.

 

if your a 200lb dude with full gear. probably not very comfy.
if your a 170 lb dude with normal clothes on, it is comfortable to me!

i just rode in the back seat of my buddies double cab last weekend, 3 hour drive each way