Cant stop while towing snowmobile trailer

I was getting what i think is brake fade like crazy this past weekend pulling my 2 place enclosed aluminum clam shell trailer with 2 sleds on it with 2 adults in the truck plus riding gear. There was a few times i didnt think I was going to stop in time as well. When i would have to get on the brakes the pedal would go down further than it usually does and the truck just did not stop.

The front brakes were just done and have less than 20k on them, but they were advanced auto pads/rotors

The truck had the frame replaced last winter so the brake fluid was fresh then and only has 10k since.

I dont think that the rubber lines are expanding otherwise i think i would be getting the brakes sticking on after i let go of the pedal as well.

As far as I know the rear brakes have never been done. The parking brake holds really well .

Truck is a 05 TRD OR 6spd with 135k. The trailer is less than 750lbs and the sleds are approx 450lbs each.

Could it be the cheap front brake pads not biting enough ?

Thoughts ?

 

Not knowing your driving style, terrain you were on, or towing experience, hard to say. My gut is to say stop using your brakes, use the engine.

I was taught to drive by my dad, who harped on "save your brakes". Hes been a truck driver for 40ish years. When I've told the same to people having the same issues I'm usually told "brakes are cheap".

That's not what it means doing a lot of downhill using the brakes all the time is a lot of heat, not much braking to be had. Downshift and use engine braking, plenty of brakes to be had. If it's not something you're used to it feels kind of odd to stay off the brakes but it works really wel.l

 

I do use the engine to brake a lot, even when I am not towing a trailer. I downshift all the time instead of hitting the brakes. I trailer fairly regularly with sleds/atvs etc.

The terrain was through the mountains leaving where we were sledding and then highway for the rest of the ride. 3 instances i noticed in particular were while on flat ground i went to slow down to pull into a gas station and didnt think i was going to make the turn because i could not slow down enough, another was on flat ground going through a little town where i got cut off by a guy in a truck and had to slam on the brakes and the other was getting off of the highway after not touching the brakes for a hour or so.

at this point i think i would be scared to tow anything bigger with the truck based on how it was braking and i know the truck can pull alot more than i have on it.

 

Have you checked the fluid level? If the pedal is going down more, you might have developed a leak, and it could be unrelated to the trailer. See if it acts the same without the extra weight back there. if it does, you might have a minor leak.
Also, a stuck caliper could be causing the brake fluid to heat up.

 

Did you not tow with that truck before you replaced the front brake pads? Or before the frame swap? You should be able to say if it's worse now or if it's always sucked.

I think the brakes feel pretty weak when you're towing heavy weight (like 5000 lbs) but you shouldn't be worried about not stopping with 1650 lbs.

I would be more worried about the calliper sliding pins seizing and only having half stopping power up front. That is common with our callipers especially in rust belt road salt regions. When I did my front brakes on my last truck (06 tacoma) my front pads were 5% inside and 40% outside. Didn't realize they were seized up and not pulling from both sides.

Also.. did you do the pads yourself? Were they really shitty pads? Pads are cheap - get another set of higher quality ones and try them. I'm surprised you didn't do your rotors too. Thicker rotors are better at resisting heat in heavy braking (trailering) situations.

 

I'd look for an issue then. The tow/stop ability on these little trucks is pretty limited to start with, any mechanical problem is going to make it even worse. The rotors may be glazed, the calipers may not be moving correctly, but really neither issue should affect your pedal travel. That sounds like air in the system or overheated fluid to me.

 

I towed with the truck prior to the frame swap and prior to doing the front brakes. The front brakes were worn out before and I have always thought that the brakes in these trucks were terrible to begin with. When i did the front brakes I did pads and rotors and they were from advanced auto for whatever that is worth with quality.

I do remember the pad slide pins being pretty rusty when i did the pads and cleaned them up the best i could then. I will check into that.

If there is air in the system then it would have been from when the frame was swapped. I was thinking over heating from the fade effect I was feeling.

Again the truck stops with no trailer but i have always felt the brakes were terrible in the truck to begin with compared to other vehicles, even after replacing front pads and rotors

looks like i have a few things to look at this weekend.

I was also thinking of swapping to SS front lines, but not sure if that is going to improve anything.

 

I think the last time I had a brake shop work on my truck it was 50-100 to have all the brake fluid changed and pressure bled. I usually takes a lot of pressure or time to really heat up your brakes to the point of being useless. If you hadn't touched them for an hour and then had no brakes on 1 stop I don't think that you are having a heat issue. And you shouldn't need hard lines. You're not towing that much and brake lines don't bulge that much unless they're ready to fail. The had lines will (usually) make the brakes a smidge better, but you're describing more than a want for improvement. The brakes aren't great, but they're not so bad they will fail that quick.

I've taco towed a couple times through the mountains, and while I could definitely tell I had some weight behind me (without trailer brakes). nothing like what you're describing. And that's counting once I had my head up my butt and came in way too hot on a downhill turn. Pucker factor was high but I managed.

My last few sets of brakes/rotors have been the usual part shop stuff. I haven't had an issue with any of them, and I can be fairly aggressive in my mustang. Disc brakes are pretty darn easy, it's fairly difficult to cause a problem swapping them.

I do a lot of my own work but there are times that having a 2nd set of eyes look at an issue is a good idea. I'd think about having a brake shop do a quick eval.

 

could be a leak on your booster, pop the hood and have someone check to see if theres any hissing under the hood or noticeable RPM change while you are sitting/parked and you apply the brakes.

 

I think my plan for this weekend is to hook my gopro up somewhere to watch the soft lines when braking just to make sure they are not bulging, pull the wheels and check the pins/pads to see if they are moving freely. I just ran out to the truck at work and looked at the rotors and they do not look glazed at all.

The rear drums have never been done to my knowledge so i should probably pull the drum and inspect them.

I am also going to get over to my buddies house and drive his taco just to make sure im not being crazy here.

 

Did you properly bed the brakes when you serviced them the last time? If not (most folks don't) scuffing and cleaning the rotors will let you 'start over', assuming they don't have any damage from anything.

You say 'Advanced Auto', but they have different grades of pads. Did you get ceramic pads or other? There are other aftermarket pads that will have a little more cold bite, at the expense of more dusting. But it's pretty unlikely you have an overheating issue based on use, although maybe if you have a sticking caliper. You'll know immediately when you pull the wheels. Sticking side will have much more dust and pad wear. Not to mention it may be hard to move on the sliders.

I too suspect the system needs bleeding, and the caliper slide pins servicing. Cheap enough to try, just a bit of time involved.

 

There must be an issue. I tow my clamshell with two sleds every weekend and it's like it's not even there.

 

1. Glazed pads or rotor
2. The brake fluid has been compromised, boiled or water.

 

So OP, have you done any investigative work on this yet, or found a solution?

 

You said that the brake pins were rusty and you just cleaned them up. You should replace them. Have you checked your front wheel bearings? If one or both are worn out it allows the rotors to push the pads apart and you get increased pedal travel. I replaced rotors, pads and all the hardware with stock parts when I did mine and have had no issues towing or otherwise.

 

I didnt get a chance to today, hoping to get out to the garage tomorrow to see whats going on

Picked up some new pins and grease already and going to install them regardless

 

been in the background here watching this issue.
It would take me all morning to type what you need to do.
However maybe I can help with a few suggestions.

Get a second set of eyes with a experienced tech as suggested
Check for m/c and system leakdown.
Engine off pump pedal untill all vac assist is gone and pedal hard as poss.
When applying moderate pressure does the pedal feel spongy.
Yes poss air in lines.
Hold constant med pressure for 30 seconds. Does the pedal walk down
Yes check for expanding soft lines and caliper and wheel cyl. Leak.
None replace m/c
Rear brake adj extreamly important.
Check e brake adj. and binding.
E brake should be backed off and then rear shoes adj. then ebrake brought back into play.
Rear proportion valve checked. If this is bad you have only half braking system.

Your truck should not have this much of an issue with with 1,100 pounds.
Knowing stuff is back there, absolutely. Dangerous, no.
Just suggestions for you.
Bleed the brake system again anyway. One little bubble can really really upset the apple cart.

Again you really need someone with professional long time experience to help you. I hate to see people throwing parts at things. I had two situations this week alone with people trying to fix things themselves. Cost them twice as much as it should have.
Brakes are my red flag in here.

No disrespect
Good luck.

 

If your rear brakes have not been touched it's time to have a look with weight of a trailer your rear brakes are doing a good bit more than they normally would empty. It may also be a good ideal to actually weigh the loaded trailer. You are above the weight of a trailer without breaks in many states also your gear comes into play my snow mobile gear is probably a good 25# or more + another rider.

 

Ok guys im embarrassed to post these pictures ... but here is what i found.

i pumped the brakes with the truck off until vac assist was gone and the pedal held firm and held for 30+ seconds with no movement. I watched the drivers front soft brake line as best as i could while doing a balancing act and pumping the brakes and did not notice any expanding of the lines .... now here is where the problems started. With the wheel off and me pumping the brake while watching the back of the caliper/pads i could see the pads flexing and only the middle of the pads moving slightly. The pads were certainly not sliding on the pins as they should.

The caliper/pins and such were way more corroded/rusted than i thought they were.



Took a fair amount of pounding and pulling to get the pins out as they were frozen in the caliper. The pads were not moving on them at all. They got tossed



The pads were frozen to the pins, to the pistons in the caliper and to the caliper body itself. They were not moving what so ever. I think the only braking I had was the middle of the pad flexing. surprisingly the pads didn't look terrible and were not worn all that non uniformly




What do you guys think of the rotors ?



It took a lot my 24" pry bar to get the pads out of the caliper bodies. I cleaned up the pads where they make contact with the pistons/body of the caliper. applied a very think layer of caliper grease to them to keep them from sticking and installed them back with new pins with some grease on them. Everything seems to be working and sliding like it should be at this point.




I put everything back together with the parts i had after cleaning them up for the short term and the brakes are 10x better than they were. I guess I did not realize how bad they were. The inside lower piston on the passenger side caliper is frozen and i could not get it to retract. I am leaving on vacation this week for 3 weeks so i dont have time to put replace it all before i leave. When I get back I am planning on replacing both calipers and getting new pads. The rotors have a warranty on them so i will probably turn them in for new ones as well.

At this point im just happy i didn't crash from it being the way it was or hit someone else. I am certainly adding a check to my regular 5k mile maintenance to check the brake pads/pins and making sure they are freely sliding. I am usually pretty good about keeping a eye on stuff like this and killing corrosion/rust before it gets to bad but I guess I have been slacking on this one. Lesson learned.

On another disappointing note i found this today also when i went to pressure wash off the trailer from last weekends trip. Guess I dont have to worry about pulling a trailer for a while until i get it fixed/replace the trailer. The main frame rails on both sides cracked right where the axle bolts to it. Is it summer yet ?

 

Your plan to replace most of those parts is a good one. The rotors could be fine, just measure to be sure, then clean up with some scotch pads if they are ok.

Be sure to get into your rear brakes as well. They are likely what has been primarily stopping the truck; I suspect the front pads have barely been engaging due to the calipers being partially frozen. Betting you'll find a fair amount of service work needed there, just to have things all cleaned up if nothing else.

Thanks for reporting back for those of us who like to learn from stuff like this! Be sure to bed the new pads properly. It doesn't matter if the rotors are cleaned up or new, the pads still need bedding............

With the cleaning and new parts & Castrol LMA brake fluid with a good bleeding, you'll be amazed at your new found stopping power!