Help me with my speaker project

A few years back I put in a Kenwood 9980HD HU and have been reasonably pleased. Don't like the UI for iPod/phone integration, but it has worked out.

You can see the install here:
https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/kenwood-9980hd-camera-ipod-pac-swi-rc.159499/

I never changed out my speakers. The truck is 10 years old but I need a project and will probably keep it as a beater truck even when I get something else. But with 140K miles I don't want to break the bank on speakers.

I will probably put some deadening in the doors at least since I'll have them open. Always wanted to try that and hoping it will help with the road noise as well.

But I'm looking for recommendations on speakers for front and rear, keeping the following in mind:

I don't need it to be super loud. I'm pushing 50 and don't want to hear (or feel) what the car next to me is jamming to, so I don't have a desire to impose what I'm listening to on others.

I don't want to break the bank for the reasons noted above.

I really don't want to run any more new wiring than I have to.

Front speakers:
I'm thinking some components in the lower door spot. Don't want to mess with a new separate tweeter unless its pretty straightforward. I've seen some guys do their custom mounts, and I'm reasonably capable mod wise, but that seems like a lot of trouble.

Rear speakers:
I'd really like to put a couple 6.5 or 8" "subs" in the doors. No box. I know it won't be like having some huge 15 in there. But I don't need to impress anyone, and I'm not willing to give up any space. I figure a smaller/low profile sub will be a whole lot better than what is there - even without an enclosure - so that's what I'm looking for.

Maybe the experts think thats crazy. I suppose maybe just a quality speaker that isn't a "sub" would be better for some reason. That's why I'm asking.

Amp:
I assume I could forgo an amp (and wiring) altogether if I don't do "subs". Otherwise it must go under the seat and I assume I would use the preouts from my HU and that will require wiring. OK to just use the amp for the "subs" or do I need to wire to the fronts as well?

Other:
I'm thinking ********* mounting stuff.

I've been thinking about some budget stuff here:
http://www.parts-express.com/?utm_s...+-+Brand+-+Main&utm_group=G-Brand-Main-Exact#!


Sorry for the long post. I like to plan this stuff out and look at all the options. Would welcome feedback, and ideas.

Thanks in advance.

 

I think subs in your doors would require gobs of treatment to sound anywhere near decent. You'd be subjecting all that metal & plastic to a great deal of vibration. And I'd imagine you'd want to try & seal the door somehow. I'd also rethink the amp idea. The stock speakers are pretty efficient and need to be to work with the low power your HU provides. You'll want to replace them with a driver of similar efficiency, which means marginal improvement, if you intend to only use head unit power.

On drivers, you may want to decide whether you'll use an amp first then choose. If you don't want to use an amp, choose something with high efficiency and keep your expectations lower. Head unit power will typically be below 5W per driver in a 2-way going through a passive crossover. If your head unit will support an active system, perhaps consider going that route with a suitable amp and raw drivers & eliminate the passive crossover - which can be a significant chunk of the cost of components.

 

Thanks. Chalking up one firm vote against "subs" in the doors.

Youre talking over my head a little. If I understand correctly, you are saying that even my aftermarket HU probably needs an amp with or without subs. Is that correct? I can handle the wiring. It's just my least favorite part of the whole ordeal.

How do I find out if a Kenwood 9980hd will "support and active system"?

I appreciate the constructive help. Secretly hoping someone will tell me my HU and the tiny gauge wire will support some beefy "sublets" without an amp though. lol

TL

 

Heh, sorry about that. I looked it up - your head unit will support it. It has a nice feature set actually...DSP and some sort of 13 band EQ (not sure if graphic, parametric, paragraphic) is nice. When I mention 'active', I'm speaking of your head unit's ability to do the crossover work internally without using passive units and without using crossovers on your amp(s)...although active from just amps is possible with the right amps. Basically this gives you a great deal of control and lets you skip passive crossovers (although you need to amplify each driver). You set the crossover points (and maybe slopes) yourself. This is a great choice when you want to use raw drivers as you don't need to worry about nailing a passive network the first time.

You can totally power speakers from the head unit, but realize that your selections will be limited because you'll want to pair drivers based on that low power availability. Maybe get the idea of powering any sort of subs with the head unit out of your noodle. You can probably make an improvement over stock drivers - just keep your expectations in check. For what it's worth, I don't use rear speakers anymore (err except a subwoofer)...that's totally a matter of preference though.

If you aren't using the DSP in your head unit, try this first. I have no idea if it will work through the head unit power, but if it will and you aren't using it, you may discover that all you need to do is tune what you have.

 

if you get mounts from us ect... my word they wil ship out same out next day and youll have them in a few days prior to them being sent out.
any other questions shoot me a message

 

Thanks

I have played with things some. Can't hurt to try again.

Perhaps you can clarify a little further for me.

First - I totally realize that anything remotely sublike will require an amp. Any comments I make to the contrary are in jest.

I'm not as clear on the need for an amp for better drivers up front. Sounds like the HU might be fine to drive some fairly efficient speakers. But that probably depends on the specs of the speaker. Can you tell me what specs to look for?

Also trying to get an idea of cost differential. I don't intend for you (or anyone else) to do my research for me. But I'm hoping to find an example of a speaker set up +/- amp and see what the costs will be. I can look at particular specs and build some options to compare. But if you, or anyone else, has an example of reasonably priced speakers/amps that would work that will give me a head start. (I've seen the "what speakers did you use" thread in this forum, and am using it as one reference)

I'm particularly unfamiliar with amps. Not opposed to using one if it will make a difference, but mostly knew it would complicate the wiring.

Thanks again for the help.

 

Great, Thanks

 

Well, there's no easy & complete answer regarding efficiency, as other things come into play, but probably the best indicator will be the sensitivity rating (SPL in dB) which is usually measured at 1W@1m@1kHz. A higher number means higher efficiency. For head unit power you should be looking maybe in the high 80s or above. Keep in mind that using a passive crossover network will eat some of your power. That's another reason to go active. Furthermore not all kits with crossovers are properly matched.

With the amp thing, a certain amount of power is needed to get drivers to play to a given level without audible distortion. Again many factors come into play here, but a simple explanation is the louder you want the drivers to play cleanly the more power you need. I personally can't do that on head unit power. I'll distort my inefficient drivers if I try. However when I apply an amp, I can drive them to that level cleanly - and beyond (that's called headroom - the ability to go beyond what you typically need and it's a very good thing). Only you know what that level is, but keep in mind that you aren't happy with your stock sounds and that's somewhat because of the power available. You aren't going to get that much of an improvement without increasing the power no matter how much you spend on speakers.

On your amp(s)/speakers, do you intend to try active or do you want to stay with passive stuff? You need to make that decision first. You don't have to spend a lot of money to do this - especially if you go active and perhaps use speakers not specifically branded for car audio (which usually come with a markup). Have a look at Madisound and Parts Express for examples. But I'll give some I might use. Since you don't want a separate sub enclosure, I'll just do the 4 channel example. There are kazillions of 4-channel amps in the 50-100W/channel range for ~$200. Just far too many. That's a good thing. (If I had to buy one today, it'd be the Zapco ST-4X SQ) Same with speakers, but something like a Silver Flute W17 or SB Acoustics SB17 or Dayton DC series woofer with maybe a Vifa BC25 or XT 25 or SEAS 27TFF or Scanspeak Discovery tweeter. You didn't mention a budget, but going that route would be maybe $350-$400 for the amp, 2 woofers and 2 tweeters. That's some nice stuff for the coin too. Spending gobs of money for good sound just isn't necessary. Keep in mind those speakers aren't all specifically made for cars and might require a little creativity, but that's what forums are for. If you want easy, buy stuff made for cars. A kit with a crosssover would give you the flexibility to do active or passive, but you'll pay for that flexibility. You may pay more for convenience, but to some that's everything.

Yeah, an amp is more wiring and you'll need to run wires through the doors. But it's something you generally do once and it's done. Assuming you have all the stuff you need, it can be done in a couple hours or less. Perhaps simplify things and once you're certain how many channels you'll need, buy an amp with that many channels. I personally still prefer Class A/B amps as I don't believe Class D amps are 'there' in full-range quality with the exception of pricey high-end stuff. But that's another place to research. Just because I don't use them doesn't mean you shouldn't.

Hopefully that brings you a bit closer to where you want to be and not deeper into the pit of confusion. Budget will help with any other recommendations, but I made the above assuming you wanted to keep it reasonable. And keep in mind I completely ignored your rear speakers. What you have in there now may be suitable for rear fill (if you like that sort of thing) - running off the head unit if you amp everything else.

 

I would get the mounts from Mr Marv
As far as amp I would look for a five channel that way you don't have to do anymore wiring for the subs if you ever decide to get them

 

And Class D amps are generally smaller like the PDX series from alpine are tiny
Hybrid audio Speakers FTW

 

Yep and are typically a good bit more efficient - 85-90%. If I were driving an electric car it would be tempting. There are wild differences in SQ regarding various Class D amps however.

In general:

Class D pros:
1. Higher power density (both in size and weight)
2. Higher efficiency
3. Potentially lower cost

Class D cons:
1. Limited power Bandwidth
2. Lower SNR
3. Higher THD
4. Response that varies with load
5. Higher circuit complexity
6. EMI/EMC related issues

While the gaps between these & A/B designs is closing, it's still there.

 

Yeah but it kinda sounds like Class D is better for this application.

 

Is there some specific reason you say this?

 

Size
You can fit a PDX in the glove box if you wanted to

 

And I've had both styles of amps and in all honesty I really don't think that there is that much difference. I think he should get something in his power range he needs with the size of amp he needs whether or not it's A/B or D is not really that important

 

And also I wouldn't go cheap on the speakers because that is where there will be most difference in sound

 

Cheap and inexpensive don't mean the same thing

HAT stuff is quite nice, but to claim the same or superior results can't be achieved with far less expensive drivers is misguided.

 

LIke what kind of speakers?

 

Those drivers I mentioned above live in the humbly-priced yet sweet-sounding category. Most of them are very well built to boot.

 

Appreciate the discussion

I'll give it all some thought. I need to be better educated.

Working on it.

Thanks