Wyoming B.S. Thread

One step further from noobdom, thank you @Digiratus

 

I will take you up on that offer. Depending on what kind of hang out, I can bring the truck or my more preferred method of transport through Yellowstone in the summer...the crotch rocket.

Unless you want an excuse to come to Jackson...which if it were monte he’d tell me to pound sand hahahaha

 

Well I was thinking trucks, but I couldn't blame you for wanting to ride. If everything goes as planned, I should have another bike next summer. Fingers crossed .

 

Yea, Wyoming mud can be a bitch. This is a friends truck. Don't know why I didn't take a photo of mine that day, it was worse.

 

Yeah looks about right. LoL

 

I still have nightmares

The sound of it flinging up off the tire and pounding down on the cab roof was deafening

 

When my son was five years old he coined a name for those, he called them "mud Frogs"

 

Hope everyone had a good break! Just got back to work from camping. Was a good time. Great weather.

 

Pretty gay

 

I've been know to push a few rocks off cliffs. Don't see a big problem with it as long as it's done safely.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big advocate of staying the trail, cleaning up campsites, packing out trash, etc.

But how do you think those canyons got there? Those rocks will all fall off at some point.

 

Ya but human involvement speeds it up. Yes not in your life time or your kids and if your fine with that then it’s just kinda selfish. Not like you can rebuild those things. If everyone did it you would see an impact.

 

I don't think that's a fair analogy.

A forest fire will cause the same amount of damage whether it was human caused or natural. And if you want to play devil's advocate, maybe humans shouldn't be involved with putting out natural forest fires then? I think human's involvement in putting out fires is the leading cause of the beetle kill epidemic we've experienced due to overpopulation of pine trees.

Yes, I agree with you that over time enough people throwing rocks off cliffs will make a difference, but you've been to the desert - there's a million cliffs, and in infinite number of rocks, and one single rain storm could make a larger impact that any amount of humans ever could.

I'm not saying everyone should go push as many rocks off as possible, but at least he didn't graffiti his screen into the rock at TOTW like some other members

 

TL;DR - This is an interesting conversation, and I think you're both right.

On the one hand, I think it's human nature for us to be curious and want to see what happens when a rock falls down a cliff. There are many reasons for that, but I think it's safe to say that the following are some of the biggest:

• We're human - I've never seen a kid (perhaps toddler is a better term) who didn't want to throw (or skip) a rock in a creek or over a ledge. These kids aren't jaded by everything we've all learned about right/wrong things to do over the years; so I chalk it up to human nature.
• We see these huge canyons and we "know" how they are formed (water, wind, erosion), but we rarely get to see it. Especially for us who like to be out in it, there's a sense of wanting to understand that process a bit more. We want to see how a rock tumbles. We want to see the landslide it creates.

In the "middle ground," it's also true (whether we like it or not) that:

• People have been doing this for as long as we've lived on Earth.
• At least on the edge of the canyons, those rocks are going to fall off eventually anyway. Most likely.
• We as humans are doing things that are significantly worse to this planet than rolling rocks.

On the flip side, there's a question of scale.

• Obviously, if everyone in the world rolls a huge bolder off the side of a canyon, we're going to see a complete lack of boulders on the tops of canyons, and there will be some material damage as a result (both of the top of the canyon in the gathering up of all the boulders, as well as accelerated erosion of the canyon walls). (side note: If Everybody Did, which you can "read" here)
• The internet, and social media have the ability to dramatically increase scale well beyond what we've previously known as humans (in any single lifetime). And they make it easier for people who do "a thing" to show that to others, which may then want to copy the behavior. And, in copying the behavior, those people are impacting more than just the singular behavior - they are also getting themselves to the place to behave in that way (and getting there causes other destruction).

I don't have an answer, but I do think that in all these types of conversations, it's important for us to step back and think and talk, rather than simply react and take sides. Our world today is becoming more and more polarized - people unwilling to listen to each other, unwilling to look for common ground, unwilling to compromise. I believe that nothing (or almost nothing) in life is completely black and white, but you'd never know that from social media or the internet - where polarization is the goal, it's what generates followers (and ultimately revenue). [So really, maybe that's the real problem - polarization brought by the media/internet?]

For instance - some things to think about that are all "destructive" and that different people might draw the line differently as "ok":

• Picking a rock up from the side of a lake or stream and skipping it into the middle of the lake or stream. It's technically not "natural" so should it not be done?
• Throwing a smaller rock (call it golf ball size) off the side of a cliff to see how long it takes to hit the bottom (assuming you're reasonably confident of not hurting someone below).
• Petroglyphs - the ones from hundreds of years ago. It could be argued that they were the graffiti of the day.
• "Staying the trail" in our tricked out rigs. Burning gas, and not letting nature take the trail "back to it's original state."
  .
  ...and maybe...
  .
• Doing any of the above as part of a personal journey in life vs. "filming it" and posting it on the internet.

I also think it's OK to disagree about something and still be friends (and I'm not saying that you guys are suddenly not friends). It comes back to looking for common ground and compromise. To talking with each other. To understanding that we're not all identical - if we were, the world would be a boring place - and that's OK. To being OK with smaller disagreements in larger friendships.

I actually think the posts so far in this thread are good - my read of them is that they are mostly civil, respectful, and are part of the thinking and talking. That's great. It's very different than the reaction I've seen to this in a few other places - even on TW, where it's been very polarized. Blaming, finger pointing, immediate condemnation - essentially, immediate war.

Actually, Ben, I felt like your first post was a bit of immediate war, but then you were able to step back, listen, and converse with Brett as he brought up some other points. Love that. We need more of it if we're going to survive on this planet.

That's part of why I like this thread.

 

Jesus Dr phil lol.

 

i do everything i can to remove trash when im out doors, stay the trail, clean up any spills blah blah blah...

but if im in the middle of nowhere and see a huge cliff im going to throw a few rocks off it and watch it explode. sorry, natural freeze/thaw and erosion destroys and changes more rock features than humans could do throwing nearby rocks into a ravine. I expect you to protest every mountain road that has ever been cut and blown through the hill side, every tunnel thats been dug and every dam thats been made. Because those clearly have impacted the land. there are plenty of things to be triggered over in 2018, people throwing rocks off a cliff...not one of them

 

There are two bits here - one that is about "personal behavior" and one about "culture behavior":

I don't know if there's a middle ground in the long run for cultural behavior, but I hope there is! ...Because at the end of the day, many of the things I like to do to enjoy the wild are in fact (I believe) somewhat destructive to it; yet I don't want someone to say, "You can't go adventure into the wild because that burns oil and creates roads/erosion/etc. where there wouldn't be any." And, I love skipping rocks. And I've thrown my fair share off a cliff.

So all I can do is affect my personal behavior. I can temper the other side - the frustration and hair trigger response. By respectfully asking questions / having a conversation, my hope is that I can both better understand as well as build a respectful relationship with the people I interact with. And in my experience, when done well, if you build a respectful relationship with someone, they are much more likely to hear and take to heart your point of view (even if they don't change theirs) than if they are simply attacked/told that they are wrong.

 

I understand your frustration, Ben, but I just can't relate driving off trail, littering, etc, to pushing a rock off a cliff.

FWIW, here's the news from CO this Memorial day weekend.



https://durangoherald.com/articles/225941

Driving off trail in the alpine tundra will leave noticeable damage that will last decades. This is clearly a negative, lasting impact against our hobby. Whereas one rock doesn't really matter, this one off-trail driving incident does.

I guess I just don't see how tossing rocks off cliffs really damages anything. Should you do it - probably not. Does it really effect anything if you do - also probably not.

 

I find this conversation hilarious.

Ben you have and you will destroy more shit with your lead footed wheeling tactics than I think everyone you know will ever do by picking up a rock and throwing it.

Mother nature will kick all our asses by moving more rocks every year all by her self.

Claiming "its the mindset" isn't true either. Everyone throws rocks in lakes, creeks, off cliffs. Not everyone drives their UTV on alpine tundra. Its all our jobs to help stop THAT from happening and making sure people tread lightly. Becasue as cool as Wilderness is..its not easily accessible or easily always enjoyed by many, but by few.

I know you've done that stuff as you've admitted, even stuff i've watched you do and go..wtf why?

IMG_9708 by mike digirat, on Flickr

But i also know you'd never drive off trail just to drive off trail.

Getting mad at someone throwing a rock isn't gonna get anywhere with anyone other than making you look like an ultra tree hugging hippie that wants to control people's lives.


Point is. Think you overreacted to a rock more than needed. But there is no denying we need to watch our impact all the more as more and more people take to the forests.

 

IMO, if everyone were start with the question "what is my part in this?" and are honest and thorough with that assessment, we will soon recognize we are part of the problem and therefore part of the solution.