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Rear tow/air bags affect on shock/spring performance?

Discussion in 'Suspension' started by OkieYota, Dec 11, 2018.

  1. Dec 11, 2018 at 8:18 AM
    #1
    OkieYota

    OkieYota [OP] Unknown Member

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    Hello guys

    I am considering switching from the stock 3rd gen TRDOR suspension to the Factory TRDPRO suspension. I would also like to add (1) 1/4" spacer on the passenger side and (2) 1/4' spacers on drivers side to achieve approximately 1.5" of lift in the front.

    But I need some advice on the rear.

    I haul probably 500+ lbs of equipment including my camper shell in the bed of my truck daily for work across some moderately rough terrain and washboard roads.

    I would like to achieve a level load in the rear and was considering either a 1" hellwig Helper spring with some wheelers super bumps or like I had on my tundra some Firestone air bags and daystar cradles.

    I dont think that the shock travel will be far enough out of a safe operating range with just that additional 1" in the rear with the helper spring especially fully loaded.But I like the idea of having the adjustablity of the air bags which can give me the perfect rake both loaded and unloaded.

    My actual question is how will the rear shock performance be affected by the addition of the air bags. Will the shocks still be able to work as designed or will I loose performance. I imagine the added cushioning of the airbags would affect the compression and maybe accelerate the rebound.

    And please try to keep to the question not the "just buy ,kings, fox,dakars, ome ." shtick

    thanks in advance
     
  2. Dec 11, 2018 at 10:40 AM
    #2
    jerryb1984

    jerryb1984 Well-Known Member

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    How often don’t you have the additional 500 pounds in the bed? It seems with that much weight in all the time you’d be riding on the bags all the time and would have to keep 15-20 psi in them at all times to keep it levelish. Airbags are great when unloaded and leave the 5 psi that’s recommended in them, as then you are using your stock suspension when unloaded. Seems in your case your suspension would be the bags if your always using them. I’d say an add a leaf of sorts would be better for you with a constant load. It will be a bit high in the rear when you don’t have the load, just would depend if you’re loaded or unloaded more often in my opinion. Loaded all the time, add a leaf, mostly unloaded with occasional load the bags would make more sense.
     
    toysrgood likes this.
  3. Dec 11, 2018 at 10:48 AM
    #3
    OkieYota

    OkieYota [OP] Unknown Member

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    So do you think a helper spring wouldn't work as well as an AAL? I am hoping it would act as more as an overload and only come into effect when loaded.

    I usually have the weight in the truck all the time unless I am off work for more than a couple days. But my job situation will probably change before I get rid of this truck as I am hoping to have this truck for the next 10 years. If so I dont want to have more than an inch lift in the rear.

    My biggest concern is upgrading the rear shocks pointlessly by negating any benefit with the wrong load helper system.

    Hellwig.jpg
     
  4. Dec 11, 2018 at 10:53 AM
    #4
    jerryb1984

    jerryb1984 Well-Known Member

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    That would be good too. I’d just say the airbags aren’t the best option here as you’d be on them all the time it seems.
     
  5. Dec 11, 2018 at 10:56 AM
    #5
    jerryb1984

    jerryb1984 Well-Known Member

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    I went with a 1.25 inch or so lift on mine and didn’t touch the rear end as I don’t tow or haul heavy with this truck. If I ever load my Honda 400 sportrax in the rear I’ll take a pic of how much it squats. About 400ish pounds.

    1E43070E-7573-44AE-BA20-A1684514A37E.jpg
     
    OkieYota[OP] likes this.
  6. Dec 11, 2018 at 11:07 AM
    #6
    TenBeers

    TenBeers Well-Known Member

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    I like your thinking. Likely the main thing that would be affected is rebound damping as the wheels drop with no load, like hitting potholes or at speed over washboard. The higher spring rate with no load pressing against it may move the wheels slightly faster than intended. Compression damping not so much, since you are just compensating for additional load with additional spring rate. Rebound over undulating terrain probably not affected either.

    Since the Fox shocks have damping zones, keeping the static height similar to stock height and the appropriate spring rate for your load should keep the intended damping characteristics. With just 500 pounds and a little extra support, I wouldn't worry too much. My camping setup is about 600 or so, and I use Ride Rites for some extra support.
     
    OkieYota[OP] likes this.
  7. Dec 11, 2018 at 2:06 PM
    #7
    OkieYota

    OkieYota [OP] Unknown Member

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    That looks really good what size tires are you running?

    I want to go with the TRD Beadlock rims in gray. With 265/75/16R Firestone MT/2
     
  8. Dec 11, 2018 at 2:24 PM
    #8
    OkieYota

    OkieYota [OP] Unknown Member

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    Thanks , I knew someone on here would have some knowledge in this area. Do you have any idea what this would feel/drive like with the rebound affected? It wouldnt make for a dangerous "stutter" across washboards would it?
     
  9. Dec 11, 2018 at 2:44 PM
    #9
    TenBeers

    TenBeers Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it would make for a dangerous stutter, and with weight in the rear it may actually feel a bit more stable at speed. With that amount of weight, you won't need a lot of extra support, maybe 15 -20 psi. Air suspension is typically progressive, so as it extends, the spring rate goes down. I really don't think it would have much noticeable effect on the damping. I was just geeking out on your question.

    Again, this is all theory, but I have driven washboard roads with the air bags, Fox Pro suspension, and similar weight, and it was much smoother and more stable than my previous 2nd gen with the stock yellow Bilsteins.
     
  10. Dec 11, 2018 at 3:15 PM
    #10
    OkieYota

    OkieYota [OP] Unknown Member

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    Thanks again!! do you have any pictures of your rig fully loaded with bags?
     
  11. Dec 11, 2018 at 5:23 PM
    #11
    jerryb1984

    jerryb1984 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. Tires are 265 75 16 falken wildpeaks
     
  12. Dec 11, 2018 at 8:24 PM
    #12
    Imageoguy

    Imageoguy Well-Known Member

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    Full OME suspension (885 front springs, Dakar leaf pack + OME shocks) + D29XL extra leaf + 3 deg. shim + RideRite airbags
    After 6 years running HD Dakar leaf packs, OME shocks and Firestone airbags, I decided to try a set of BP-51's on the rear. I installed them last weekend along with a fresh set of airbags as preventive maintenance. The reason that I went with the BP-51's instead of regular shocks is that when hauling a lot of gear (regularly over 1000lbs) on forestry roads, the suspension felt bouncy, especially when the roads are really bad. I think that the airbags are pushing too much during rebound. I'm hoping that being able to adjust rebound and compression on the rear shocks will help. FYI, when fully loaded, I have the bags aired-up to about 50-55 PSI. I have no pity for my taco, ride it like I stole it and that is the amount that I need to inflate them so not to bottom out too much:burnrubber: I'll report back after we get a decent snowfall.

     
    jerryb1984 and OkieYota[OP] like this.
  13. Dec 12, 2018 at 7:43 AM
    #13
    TenBeers

    TenBeers Well-Known Member

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    @Imageoguy 50-55 psi sounds like WAY too much air. According to their specs, you should need 1 psi per 40 pounds of load. 50 psi would support 2000 pounds! For your loads, adjustable OME is probably a great choice so you can use more compression damping. Your spring rates have to be high (but maybe not 50 psi) to carry the load, but you'll need more low speed compression damping to keep from getting too deep in the travel. Then increase rebound damping based on your spring rate.

    I looked last night and Flickr was being janky. I'll look again, but don't recall taking any good side shots with it fully loaded with gear. I don't use the bags to get any kind of lift, just get it back to normal ride height.
     
  14. Dec 12, 2018 at 7:56 AM
    #14
    TenBeers

    TenBeers Well-Known Member

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    Best shot I could find, but not a great angle. That's with about 500-600 pounds of gear (tent, rack, camping supplies), bags at 15 psi. I will probably up it to 18 or so next trip, as I did seem to bottom out on one drainage crossing, but otherwise seemed pretty level. I use the 1 psi per 40 pounds rule, but minimum is 5 psi so might want to go 5 psi over. I have a fat tire bike pump I use that has a good gauge for lower pressures.


    [​IMG]DSCN0498 by MrTenBeers, on Flickr
     
  15. Dec 12, 2018 at 10:34 AM
    #15
    OkieYota

    OkieYota [OP] Unknown Member

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    Yeah definitely let us know how you like the BPs and if they are noticeably different.

    And I would probably agree that 50psi seems a little high. Especially with HD leafs arent those rated to lift a constant load of like 300lbs ? So wouldn't you just need enough air for the extra 700lbs it is not supporting?
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2018
  16. Dec 12, 2018 at 10:37 AM
    #16
    OkieYota

    OkieYota [OP] Unknown Member

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    I think I am going to try the bags and If i feel like I am having to compensate with too much pressure in the rear i may try to add a 1/2" to 1" block in the rear. I just don't want to overextend the shocks

    Do you have cradles or are your bags bolted to the axle as well ?
     
  17. Dec 12, 2018 at 11:11 AM
    #17
    TenBeers

    TenBeers Well-Known Member

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    I would do an add-a-leaf before doing a block if the bags aren't enough. I'm not lifted at all, mine are bolted and installed per the instructions. These are a commercial product and tough, not too worried about them.

    That said, if your loads are pretty consistent, I'd consider Dakars if I were you, not trying to sell you air bags. I personally do bags because my heavy loads are occasional. Right now I have nothing but a bed mat and hitch rack for the MTB, but spring through fall I have my bed rack and RTT on all the time, about 300 pounds. Loaded up with camping stuff (food, firewood, beverages, water, cooking gear, recovery gear) on camping weekends, about 500-600. Good case for air bags. If I had a cap and tools all or most of the time, I'd likely replace the springs (and I probably would have gone with a TRD Off Road and upgraded the rest of the suspension).
     
  18. Dec 12, 2018 at 4:09 PM
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    Imageoguy

    Imageoguy Well-Known Member

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    Considering my deck and ramp are around 380 lbs, my sled probably close to 550, full tank of gas, 6' sleigh in box with gear, chainsaw, girlfriend, extra gas and a few other items, I might actually be pushing over 1500 lbs. In the summer time, I have my ATV on top with a whole bunch of gear and usually a few hundred pounds of rock samples in the box (as the name suggests, I'm a geologist). Cab is usually also full of equipment. Believe me, I need 50 PSI when fully loaded going at 50 mph down a pothole-laden bush road. Suspension is good at those speeds but gets really harsh when slowing down in the rough stuff. Yeah, I should really use a 1/2 ton or even a 3/4 ton truck but they don't go where I need to go. For now, the ride with the BP's is definitely smoother at the back and seems more forgiving than the Nitrochargers but I really need to test it with a good load :D
     
  19. Dec 29, 2018 at 7:57 PM
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    Jobber78

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    I have the Firestone bags and stock TRD suspension. I estimate my regular load to be around 1000lbs. When loaded, I keep about 30lbs in them. It does seem a little bouncy. I’m Looking for a shock with more rebound damping, and longer travel as I plan to lift it 3’’. Anyone know what I should get?

    87E8ACAE-45DA-4359-8ECD-6ED99B614D5D.jpg
     
  20. Jan 4, 2019 at 10:41 AM
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    OkieYota

    OkieYota [OP] Unknown Member

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    I am now considering going to either the the OME BP-51 for price roughly $3k and 3 year warranty , but from what i understand the rear shocks are not extended length even though they are supposed to be paired with the dakars which lift 2-3"??

    Or the FOX kit 2.5 DSC front and rear which should be a more comfortable shock from what I understand and you can get the rears in 3 different lengths , but is roughly $4k and only has 1 year warranty.

    If I find out the rear BP51s are in fact extended length 2-3" of lift ill probably go that route.

    Either way i'm going to wait until after lifting to decide if I want to go ahead with the bags or if i just want to upgrade the bumps.

    I know this doesnt actually answer your question , just food for thought.
     

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