3rd Gen HID vs LED vs Halogen H11 projector headlights

I’ve dug for info on this, and haven’t found a suitable thread, so I’m gonna post it here, where it’s kinda relatable, and you folks seem to have an understanding of this kinda stuff:

So - my headlight indicator is always on. Now, I’m fine with daytime running lights operating at all times, but they operate exactly as the second position does. Attached below is a pic of my stock headlights (reflected in a window to showcase the differences.). Should the base position be any less? Should my light indicator be ON on the dash even when the lights are not “on”?

 

Off should be off...that’s weird

 

@BadDogMax can you send me the link please? I see a few of these on Amazon with different prices.

 

Do you have automatic headlights?

If so that might be the reason when it’s dark the headlights come on even in the off position.

 

These are the ones tested earlier in the thread, and the ones I got:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077BT6M6Z

 

Daytime and nighttime...

 

@150k
Excellent explanation of how a projector lamp works. Thank you for the breakdown.

As far as how the led viewing angle v intensity drop off, if the center axis offset could be minimized, would a multi-sided bulb be capable of minimizing the intensity drop off, in comparison to a double sided blade approach currently taken? And regarding the different focal zones of the reflector cup, two questions:

1- if a drop in replacement bulb were to use a multi led array, would leds placed closer to the "base" of the reflector cup provide greater center intensity than the current double sided blade array?

2- I have seen reference to a "chip flip" modification to a morimoto bi-led projector. Their led array was a triangular led array made of closely spaced small led chips, with (iirc) the tip of the triangular array pointed to the back of the cup. The mod is to flip the led 180, and (iirc) this results in higher hotspot intensity for better projection distance. Would having say a 1x2/1x3, led chip array (e.g. osram white or black flat or luxeon) located near the base of the blade stem perpendicular to the opposing facing LEDs representing the replacement "filament" result in better central hotspot intensity due to its close proximity to this throat of the reflector cup?

 

No, I don't think any 3+ sided LED bulb would be successful. The light-emitting area of any replacement bulb needs to fit within the dimensions of the bulb it's replacing. I don't think that's physically possible for a 3+ sided LED bulb. Better two-sided designs will be the answer.

And I think we're basically there in terms of 2-sided designs. Even in a filament H11 bulb, there's so much "junk" in the way of the light-emitting area (filament) such as the supports, lead-in wires, black-top, base of the bulb, etc., that good LED chips shouldn't have much of an issue mostly matching. The most important paths of light emission would be contained within the gamma 1 angle on this 2D image.



The above is just a 2D image. For a more complete perspective of what a reflector roughly "looks" at in a bulb, look no further than than this H11 halogen bulb:



Most of the bottom 50% of the glass capsule is shaded blue because that's not important; light going out the bottom of the glass is basically going to hit the metal base of the bulb and not the reflector. Also, light traveling out the top 10% of the glass capsule isn't super helpful either, as it's traveling away from the reflector.



And the big long wire in the back is shaded in blue. The big long wire itself is already blocking the filament from seeing the reflector (or vice versa) so the designers probably thought that the extra blue wouldn't hurt. Plus the more blue the bulb is, the cooler it looks. But the point is that there's a relatively small window on the glass through which the reflector sees the filament, which is good for LED chips, as they fall off rapidly in terms of intensity with changes in viewing angle. People like to talk a lot about how a bulb emits a "360 degree" pattern of light, which is roughly correct, but an automotive bulb has a lot of stuff in the way of light emission, so it's not that important for a LED bulb to emit a full "360 degree" pattern of light.

The above is basically what the Europeans are saying here:

The issue is that in most projectors, the heel of the reflector cup and the bulb's longitudinal axis are perpendicular. Unless we're talking about a relatively rare "side-entry" projector like on the 4Runner or Lexus IS. While having chips directly face the heel of the reflector would help with intensity, I'm not sure if the overall design--having a 3+ sided bulb--would be ideal, given the importance of matching the location, size, (and other characteristics) of the filament.

I doubt a legitimate 3+ sided LED bulb will ever see the light of day, given the longstanding law that any automotive bulb must work in every fixture it can be plugged into. If I wanted to make 9006 bulbs tomorrow, then my 9006 bulb needs to, by law, work with a 1995 Toyota that takes 9006 bulbs and a 2032 BMW that takes 9006 bulbs. By work, I mean it must, among other things, create a compliant beam pattern.

I doubt that whenever it comes time to "legalize" LED substitute bulbs, there will be an exception to this long-standing rule. That is, if someone in the future makes a legitimate 9006R (9006-retrofit) LED bulb, it must work in every 9006 headlamp. A 3-sided bulb is a non-starter for reflectors.

Yes, the "designer" of the projector said that the flip defocuses the beam. I don't know much more in terms of specifics. I also doubt the validity of the "higher hotspot intensity" that people are claiming, partly because eyes, as I've shown, are easily misled. And a random peak lux reading somewhere in a beam is meaningless.

I would be interested if someone sent the projector out for testing though, or did some useful in-house testing.

 

@crashnburn80 , do you have any info on the placement of auxiliary high-beam lamps according to the J581 standard? I plan on installing the SS3 pods in the front grill on the high-beam circuit, and want to make sure the mounting locations are compliant. For example, width between lamps, height to ground (is roofline or hood mounting allowed), etc. I know aiming is also pertinent to compliance.

 

Where did you get the crystal ball? How do you know that a 2032 BMW will take 9006 bulbs?

 

Between 22” (min) and 54” (max) from the ground, on the same horizontal plane as far apart as practical.
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2004-title49-vol5/xml/CFR-2004-title49-vol5-sec571-108.xml

Aux high beams should be mounted as high as practical to avoid shadows and the light being interrupted by changes in the roadway elevation. On my truck with a 2.25” lift and 1.5” larger tires, 54” will just hit the ditch light mount location. However hood glare is really counterproductive/harmful for your night vision, so I would keep them forward of the hood line.

 

@crashnburn80 does this also override state laws regarding auxiliary lighting requirements? E.g. lights above the oem headlamps must be covered with an opaque cover at all times? Even if thats plainly spelled out, I foresee a lot of tickets being handed out and a lot of magistrates getting pissy.

 

I am not familiar with all the individual state laws. A state may make more restrictive laws than federal laws though (just not less restrictive), so you should follow the laws of your local jurisdiction. However, for practical purposes I’d mount the aux driving lamps at the same level as the OEM headlamps in front of the grill anyway, making it a non-issue. The ditch light location is not a good one for driving lights, I was just providing it as an example reference point based on the 54” max spec.

 

@crashnburn80

Has anyone ever thought of changing the Aux Bed Lights to amber?

 

Are you referring to the TRD 3rd brake bed lights, on either side of the brake light? What would be the purpose?

 

Yes, those specifically.

Wouldn’t amber/yellow be easier on the eyes and enable to see better?

I wonder if they could double as “chase lights” ?

 

You should look at the work that MESO Customs is doing in this area.

 

For task lighting I'd use white. While amber/yellow is easier on the eyes, white will provide higher intensity and higher contrast and overall better visibility for tasks like securing things in the bed.

 

Do LEDs in low and high beams affect the auto high beam function?

 

Yes, they make auto headlights less effective in the dark.