Red Bullet VVTi Solenoids GB (Primary GB CLOSED)

I shall log fuel consumption before and after putting these in, so people can see what they do with the Kelford camshafts. Those camshafts resulted in an enormous hit to fuel economy. Not that I'm complaining, I'm actually bragging. But would be good if I can get some of that back.

 

When you do, definitely log your consumption changes for sure! I have been tracking mine like a hawk, but there is also some adaptation time that needs to be factored in before calling the numbers fully gospel. It would also be best to stay away from deadlock traffic as that will skew numbers for obvious excessive idle time reasons.

Oh yeah man, any power adder mod will cause a hit to fuel economy. I remember after I did my cam on my LS2 I got worse fuel economy than I did before, but the power was way more than it had ever been before, easily some 50 HP more.

Too bad back then I didn't have access to a Dyno because I would had loved to see what it was pushing. Especially toward the end of ownership when I changed out the intake manifold to a Typhoon and an over the radiator intake to really get the most out of it. That was a hot setup, but ultimately, it was the constant issues with the powerplant designed around the engine and the suspension setup that made me entirely disheartened with owning it any longer.

 

50hp more is great... OHV engines do really benefit from a performance camshaft. I doubt I got that much from the Kelfords... definitely got something, but I would guess more like 25 or 30whp. I need to hit the dyno again to see for sure. They sound nice, too.

 

4 cams. That's a lot of money for 25-30 HP but hey no one ever said horsepower was cheap and mods were easy. Just that some are easier than others.

 

Ya. That was an expensive upgrade. I knew what I was in for though - on DOHC engines, cams will typically give you like 5%. Or even less. So I won't complain with 25-30hp.

 

Oh 12... you are going to have to back that up somehow. If the solenoids are causing all those issues, and they can alone be attributed to something specifically going wrong with the intake cam timing being erratic, then I'd say they are broken. And you will have to define how they are just shit. That is all just anecdotal. If "that's really all there is to it" then you should be able to easily provide some concrete answers on what these solenoids do differently then what new OEM solenoids accomplish. So if you could elaborate on how the solenoids that go many 100's of thousands of miles on millions of vehicles are shit, and that the new ones are the answer, that would be great. But that response would only justify putting a higher quality component in, to get the cam timing advancement task done. It still wouldn't explain how more power/torque is made due to them alone. I'm hoping you have a better handle on engine theory than I do and can elaborate on the specific technical aspects of what these do differently, as well as how you justify a mis-behaving solenoid is not broken and would be a valid test as a baseline on the dyno.

I haven't seen anyone claiming these trucks get great mileage... especially boosted and loaded with gear. If your oem solenoids are broken, I can easily see how replacing them with working ones would be a big change and improve your MPG. But for functioning solenoids, there could be dozens of other reasons why the MPG is down on our trucks and that isn't even taking into account weight, tire size, aero, etc that we are most likely all suffering from.

 

Made in China solenoids. There's not much more I can tell you than that. Historically speaking from my own experience I have found that a decent amount of the parts on our trucks (notably the later gen 2nd gens) are Chinese subcontract made. These are the same items which tend to fail quicker than the rest of the bunch.

I couldn't tell you what these have in them that the OE ones don't. It's not like I'm the one who made them. It's not that one is built different than the other either from initial observation, but I'd equate it most similarly to the shift kit mod that many of us have done. Most likely the spring rate is more aggressive and the electromagnet used internally is powerful which allows better oil control holding power across the board. If Prius owners benefit from it and have documented positive things to say from it then that's enough to peak my interest.

From the sounds of it, there's nothing I can say or even do that will disprove your skepticism and there's no point in trying to discuss it with you otherwise. I'm not the one benefitting from this financially, I'm just trying to do the leg work here that others can't or won't do. So feel free to observe the thread if you'd like. Otherwise, the proverbial door is right there and the 3rd gen section is a few clicks away. I have a date with a Dyno right now and have more important things to do.

 

The Dyno commences.

 

I'm sorry you are hurt by my comments. Didn't mean it that way. I went back and looked at what I said, and was simply calling out the fact that you say your solenoids were bad, then planning on using those for a dyno baseline after claiming the new ones were magical for your MPG. Is it that they are new, or is it that they do something different than OEM? Maybe they will and maybe they won't work for that purpose, but not ideal. Then I simply asked if anyone knows how the solenoids make a performance improvement over OEM, and was careful to point out that a performance improvement over functioning oem solenoids... like what do the new ones do that oem doesn't. I am still honestly asking that question...

Then in a condescending way you tried to tell me that yours aren't broken, and they are just junk cause they are from China, like why don't I 'get it'. I don't even know they are from China, is that even an established fact?

And if getting better quality, with a stronger spring or magnet or whatever is the goal, then shouldn't they function just the same as new OEM but just last longer? How is more HP developed here? Is the mechanical advancement mechanism subject to the amount of oil flow, or is it just on/off? I don't think it would be variable and based on oil pressure, since the ECU doesn't even monitor that beyond an idiot light. Does this system function in a complicated way similar to an auto trans, where line pressure and all the orifices are calibrated to do a certain thing a certain way under the guidance and control of a computer? Or is the VVT just an on/off with a transition that is mellow so as to not be suddenly 'detected by the driver'?

Skepticism is not the same as negativity or denial. I am just searching for the theory and the proof with how and why these new solenoids will benefit us. Searching out better understanding of the performance engine theory and this is part of it.

I am in no way saying that what you are doing, or trying to do for the benefit of the community is bad or anything. Just trying to understand why a claim of added HP could be backed up.

I don't appreciate being told where the door is when I'm asking legit questions and expect legit answers if anyone has them. There is no point in referencing a 3rd gen forum, or that connotation, so just chill out. I'm not trying to attack you personally. If the solenoids are understood, and the cam timing mechanism is understood, and it makes sense how they benefit us in a way that a new OEM won't, then I'm all for it, and will sign up on the group buy list.

 

Okay. The results are in.

- Prior established baseline (7/2020)
304.7 HP
328.8 TQ

- OE solenoid baseline (Today)
324.2 HP
361.2 TQ

- Post solenoid install baseline
347.0 HP
382.7 TQ

- Second run post install
315.7 HP
359.3 TQ

I tried to take video and some photos. So I have stuff to post for you guys.

The power output is coolant temp sensor sensitive and as heatsoak factored in after each run the overall readings changed. Today's temperature in my location was about 70-72*.

Here is my prior baseline. 304.7 HP/ 328.8 TQ



Here is today's established baseline with the OE solenoids installed: 324.2 HP/ 361.2 TQ


Color version of this image:



This run is immediately after the solenoid install with nothing else modified. Here is where I'm not positive as to what the change was or why, more on that below. 347.0 HP/ 382.7 TQ



The owner indicated that he was not sure if it was an anomaly on the Dyno or if that is what it actually is hard. He said he wouldn't sign off on this one, but regardless he still likes these solenoids over the OE ones because they provide more torque across the band as indicated in the graphs. After reviewing the graphs, my money is still on the initial pull after the replacement solenoids because the overall pull seems considerably harder than the OE VVT's off Dyno.

 

I will be first to say those are impressive gains! 20+ in both departments. So, there is clearly something missing in the understanding of what the solenoids do, and how it imparts change to the valve timing. Anyone understand that and care to share? With every other power adder or system improvement, we understand why the change is occurring... but this one is still shrouded in mystery.

 

In looking at the info on these solenoids, and applying my knowledge of control systems, electronics here's my take.

The improvement gained is in making the engine respond more precisely, amd quicker to desired ECU adjustments resulting in more efficient combustion closer to design ideal.

The ability of the solenoid valve to respond quickly to the ECU control output (called rise time) and their ability to be more precise( greater resolution) results in a faster feedback loop back to the ECU, and more of the time that the cylinder combustion cycle stays in its best efficient output over its rpm range. Its a win-win in power and mileage. Why wasn't this done in the first place by OEM? Simply economics i suspect, as producing the solenoid with better manufacturing tolerances, and better grade materials costs monies.

Edit:
Better resolution to control inputs is achieved with improved hysteresis. Hysteresis is the minimum change required in the control input to the solenoid, before the solenoid will actually move. This is done through engineering, balancing the mechanical spring force against the solenoid's mechanical force generated by the electromagnetic force.

 

Damn it I'm in

The better mileage and fixing of the hesitation seems worth it alone.

The HP and torque gain is impressive!

That is with no tuning as well I take it? Wonder if tuning will change or improve those numbers?

 

If you are already tuned, there should be no need to do any additional timing adjustments as observed in my logs.

The post solenoid install test was done immediately after install. Nothing else was altered nor modified outside of the direct swap.

The real magic is in the torque numbers as observed. Where our trucks need the additional oomph to get them moving. For towing, offroading and other low RPM factors the torque should be the most important variable change in these.

 

I'm in

 

Was this comparison done with new OEM solenoids since you had determined they were previously an issue, or with your old weakened/dying solenoids?

 

Thanks for your input. I understand some electronics as well, and understand what you are saying about hysteresis and rise time, response time, etc. I guess my understanding might not be reality... - do these things pulse rapidly to achieve "some" cam advance as demanded by the computer, and the actual advance is something the computer monitors in a feedback loop, thereby constantly doing PWM controlling the amount of oil flowing to the cam timing mechanism? I mean, is it really truly continuously variable?

I thought there was a simple inflection point based on throttle position or load, that switched the cam timing over to a position B instead of position A, and it did that gradually enough that you wouldn't feel it as a driver. If it is a simple open - let oil flow vs. off - no flow, then there is little the solenoid can do other than impact the transition period between A and B. And hence my questions regarding how the solenoid delivers better power. Hard to imagine if it is just on/off.

But if you are right, and it is constantly variable by percentage, or PWM, thereby restricting flow and limiting the cam timing mechanism in certain scenarios - and it does a better job of allowing oil flow to achieve max cam adjustment it can with the signals it is given, then I can understand how 'hot rodding' the solenoid by playing with Hysteresis or response time, etc can give gains.

Thanks for the constructive discussion!

The last point you made about economics is a much debated point. Yes $$ do come into it. But the other side is true too... if Toyota could have spent a few hundred more dollars on a vehicle in order to put a 1 mpg improvement on the official window sticker, you can bet your ass they would do it. 1 mpg, doing the math is easily recovered in the total cost of ownership for 100k miles. That would be hundreds of millions of dollars saved buying fuel (across the entire fleet of 4.0 engines) and something they would love to do. But maybe they thought it was just good enough? who knows. Hence why it is much debated.

 

yeah the point about economics is pure speculation on my part.

 

You had me at group buy.....I'm in.

 

Cams will give you significant power if you rev is up to 7,000RPM. They typically bump the rev range up much higher, and would only benefit from a high rev limit / custom tune.

Remember, 25hp on a 4 liter is equivalent to 50hp on a 8 liter