Choosing speakers blindly

The AudioControl D series seems interesting to me since I get a bit of additional power and the DSP.

I'm still uncertain about the JL Audio speakers I have installed.

 

so try something else. audio is half acoustics and half comfort. if you're not comfortable with something, it just sounds even worse than it already does.

that's part of what i love about shopping parts express/madisound/aliexpress/Amazon. a full component set can be put together for less than $200 in a lot of cases, which leaves a lot of leeway for trying lots of different gear. but it's also a big benefit of network/full active. i'm not reliant on any pre-existing parts compatibility. i can change any part whenever i want, and the supporting gear just needs a few minor tweaks to make it all work.

but to be fair, a large part of what sent me down the full active path was a component set of pioneer rev-series drivers, that the included passive crossover sent too low of a frequency to the tweeters, which caused them to distort at odd unpredictable intervals-- i ended up re-building every single part of that audio system, absolutely convinced that something else in the signal path was distorting the tweeters. after that, i no longer trust passive crossovers...



my first big audio install a few cars ago, i ran this tweeter, mounted vertically in the a-pillar, firing across the dash. i was happy with it, being an 1-1/8", it's got a smoother and more laid back tone, generally a very 'natural' sound, where it just sort of worked, and it wasn't worth noticing.
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayto...oft-Dome-Neodymium-Tweeter-275-040?quantity=1

the next car, i tried these 3-1/2" 'full range' drivers-- being more like the tacoma dash with integrated tweeter locations, i had more space to work with, and wanted to try to bring more midrange up to the dash level. they did work, but tend to roll off fast around 15khz, so lack a lot of 'sparkle' that most tweeters have, but have a larger midrange presence. they're good vocal drivers, but poor at music.
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayto...Source-Full-Range-Driver-8-295-349?quantity=1

then the dayton AMT's came on the market, and i gave those a shot, given the history of the folded-diaphragm design history, and it's on-paper benefits. i was really underwhelmed with them. the specifications all indicate they'll be good, but between the odd up-firing glass reflections, and the different tech, they just always seemed lacking. i never could place where they were lacking, and spent a ton of time eq-ing them to try to make them sound better, but no adjustment led to an ah-ha moment for me. it was almost like they only worked at 12khz and above, but also lagged a few milliseconds behind the main speakers, so they never blended correctly either.
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayto...Motion-Transformer-Tweeter-275-095?quantity=1

i briefly tried to foray into larger format tweeters-- i still wanted the low-end response of the dayton full range 3-1/2's, but wanted more high end. i ran these hivi's for a few weeks, but they just weren't what i was looking for. i don't remember what happened with them, but they just didn't sound as i wanted. they got pulled, and restomodded into a set of radioshack bookshelves that work spectacular.
https://www.parts-express.com/HiVi-Q1R-1-1-8-Textile-Dome-Tweeter-297-417?quantity=1

somewhere around this time, i also tried some morel tweeters-- everyone always raves about them, and they're all more expensive than i'm used to, but figured it was worth it. it was similar to the hivi's, where they worked, but i didn't care for the tone. i pulled them and modded them into a pair of infinity bookshelves, again, they work great there, just not in the car.
https://www.parts-express.com/Morel-MDT-12-1-1-8-Neodymium-Tweeter-277-060?quantity=1

from there, i went with some peerless ring radiator tweeters. i just always liked seeing the polk floor standing speakers with them, and wanted to try them for myself. i never really looked at the specs, i just liked the look. i've been running these ever since in my other vehicle.
https://www.parts-express.com/Peerless-XT25SC90-04-1-Dual-Ring-Radiator-Tweeter-264-1014?quantity=1

previously to the tacoma, but around the same time, i did the audio system in my old ranger, and wanted to do something entirely different. being a gray interior, i didn't want a standard black car audio tweeter in the pillar that everyone would recognize as an audio system, so i looked for a speaker that didn't look like a speaker. i ended up going with the dayton harb driver, and was really impressed at how well it did, not really being a tweeter.
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayto...al-Motor-High-Aspect-Ratio-295-246?quantity=1

in the tacoma, i got curious about off-brand gear, and have been running these for the past few years with no issues. it's clearly a knockoff of the peerless, just cheaper materials/workmanship.

$31 Zerone 1 Pair 2" 4Ohm 30W Silk/Polymer Composite Dome Tweeters Treble Speaker HiFi Stereo Heavy Bass Car Loudspeakers

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07W4TX6V6
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/2251832635945552.html

and if you're looking for something entirely off the wall, i've used a variant of these visaton's before for high-power portable speaker projects. they're sort a screamer of a tweeter, closer to a typical metal-dome small-format car audio tweeter, but have slightly smoother response due to the mylar material
https://www.parts-express.com/Visaton-DT94-8-0.8-Polycarbonate-Tweeter-8-Ohm-292-556?quantity=1

 

I’m really happy with the Morels. I was originally in car audio in the hay day is the 90’s-2000’s so my prior systems had Boston Acoustic components and the original MB Quarts so I looked for a certain type sound with a solid mid bass. I have no complaints at all about the morels. Windows down on the highway, they sound good and clear over wind noise. My tweeter locations on my year are on the door. I have no issues with my sound quality, clarity, staging or volume. For the price of the morel tempos, I would use them in any other vehicle in the future I decide to do replacement in. I do have some Hertz components new in the box I had originally bought but never used. They are a hard some which is why I didn’t go that route.

 

I've been playing with the EQ on the Kenwood DMX958XR, I can get the system to play better but the tweeters are struggling. Having them point at the windshield isn't helping. If I put my microphone right at the tweeter, the audio band just spikes up when playing pink noise yet having the mic where my head would be, gives me a downward sloping graph on audiotools.

I'm thinking tweeter orientation is quite important. The pods supplied by morel for the

$187 mt300 variable speed dual action polisher, professionally designed car scratch remover and car polisher with digital torque management, 1 count

mt300,350 and 450 tweeters are really nice. I figure that with those pods, I could install the tweeter in the A pillar or the sail panel and point the tweeter in a better direction.

I'm not having luck locating those pods...

Also is there a tutorial on setting up sound on this forum?

Thanks

 

Probably best to only use one device to manage eq/dsp/etc. Just making sure you aren’t stacking or duplicating cross-overs, eqs, or DSP.

 

Yes, reflections can boost or reduce different frequencies, or be used to alter the sound stage 'width'.

Personally, I prefer indirect tweeters for the more expansive sound stage, but it tend to emphasize tweeter attributes by a bit, good or bad.

Which pods are you looking for?

 

I'll try to capture a screenshot of what pink noise looks like from the drivers seat on the Audiotool app. From what I understand, the woofer and tweeter combos usually need to be relatively close to each other in order for the supplied crossover to be optimal. Right now the DB for any frequency above 8000 are quite below what a flat curve would look like. Two things come to mind: One: The tweeter curve is decent when the mike is right next to it. Two: When the mic is next to driver headrest the upper frequencies are quite low so the upper frequencies aren't making it to the mic.

I need to decide what path I shall take to address this. Different crossover, different tweeter, DSP, AMP-DSP or maybe different tweeter location. Either the sail panel or the A-Pillar would give me more direct sound from the tweeter.

Looking at the Morel line of tweeters, I really like the mounts they offer with the

$187 MT300 Variable Speed Dual Action Polisher, Professionally Designed Car Scratch Remover and Car Polisher with Digital Torque Management, 1 Count

MT300,350,450 series. It would improve alignment of the tweeters to the occupants.

 

Heres the sound with the mic at drivers headrest,

 

Here is with pink noise playing but mic at 1 inch from tweeter.

 

I dunno, it doesn't look that far off. The general tweeter curve is about the same in both, just a different amplitude, that's expected with the change in distance.

I would still suggest a different tweeter, not a change in positioning.

 

That curve needs a substage

 

I might try too address the bass eventually but space is at a premium and funds are limited. The JL audio sub for the access cab tacoma is of interest but its also 1300$ in Canada. I know other options exist but bass really isn't a priority.

For now I will look at a DSP or AMP\DSP.

I like the tweeter options at Madisound and Parts-express yet without a DSP I suspect much time would be wasted trying to find the optimal crossover with the driver.

 

You have DSP

If it were me, I'd use all the head unit's features first. Then upgrade if you still want more control.

As far as crossover point for a tweeter goes, that's easy enough. A general rule of thumb is start with roughly 2-3x Fs (resonant frequency - usually published on Madisound's page). Some manufacturers also suggest a crossover point.

 

An update...

I purchased two SB Acoustics SB29RDNC-C000-4 Neo Magnet, Ring Dome Tweeters, made custom brackets for them, ran new wiring, installed a capacitor in line with each tweeter to block low frequencies, (40uf) and got everything connected to the audiocontrol 4 channel amp.

I then changed the settings on the head unit to go to three-way speakers. I set the high pass Filters for the tweeters, then the next setting is where i got hung up. The 6x9 door speakers are connected to the head unit as mids. When i tried to play any music, the sound was not good. Nothing down low... Barely anything below 500 when playing pink noise.

I tried Playing with the settings but i just can't get decent sound from the door speakers. I might try to plug the two door speakers to the sub output on the head unit and see how high I can adjust the low pass filters. Maybe they will play better from there... The mids just aren't coming out and of course with no bass, it sounds like crap.

I went back to normal configuration and the 6x9 then play much better but since I don't have a crossover, the sound isn't right.

If i can't figure a way to get better sound, a DSP or a DSP amp is next.

 

if you run the sb acoustics tweeters in 3-way mode, you don't need the capacitor inline. it actually works to a disadvantage, cutting in forward of the intended crossover point on your head unit, and cutting off faster, which can make the tweeters start to sound unnatural, more like someone fussing with a light switch

also important-- once you switch to 3-way mode, the front output will become dedicated to the tweeter output-- it would need to be connected only to the sb acoustics tweeters. the rear output of the head unit becomes the output your door 6x9's need to be connected to.

 

Thanks Soundman, I'll give that a try this weekend.

The tweeter specs mentioned a Butterworth crossover of 12db at 2500 when tested to max pwr. With a 3.1ohm resistance and a 40pf capacitor it puts a floor on the tweeters to let anything above 1300hz pass. I had a few non polar caps but that was my highest value. If I get my hands on some 100pf caps, I might change the caps out. That would give me a floor of 500hz in case I inadvertently go back to normal mode with the head unit.

 

I confirm, connecting the lower door 6x9 to the aft channel/bass output on the head unit made a huge difference.

These SB29 tweeters have better presence above 10k hz, if I figure a way to install them on axis, that should improve things even further.

 

i did the same thing in my other vehicle at one point, so i understand the sentiment, but it's still a bad idea.

in my one vehicle, i set the amps crossovers to a lower, but failsafe setting in case my screwing around went really sideways, and then ran the head unit in 3-way mode. but i ended up chasing my tail, where i was using nearly identical speakers in both my vehicles(other vehicle has the same speakers ran directly off the head unit), but that vehicle had a drastically different tone that i couldn't identify-- almost like parts of the music were missing at random times, but absolutely nothing cut in/out. i finally disabled the amps crossovers, and everything started sounding more similar again.

this video goes over it some, though not specifically the 'failsafe' intention. when doubling up on crossovers, the output frequencies taper off as it reaches the crossover slope, which is what i was hearing with my music going 'missing' at weird points.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mme4_kpljAQ&t=4s

 

I have a D-6.1200, im happy with it now that Audio control updated the firmware to allow parametric EQ. If you can snag one cheap its a solid option especially if you want to stay 3-way active.
I had many of the same struggles you are having, i tried the kicker subaru tweeters and absolutely hated them, moved to morel 2.5" mid/tweets in the up firing position. Helped a ton but still missing somthing.
Im no expert, but using a measurment mic it seemed like midbass was being canceled somehow regardless of phasing/time alignment. I couldn't tune it out. Tried some Audiofrog GS component 6x9 based on reviews, oh man what a difference.
I dont think you need DSP, i dont use a ton of the additional features DSP offers. But im really glad i had it when i was messing around to compare changes.
Also, changing the front and rear phasing seemed to help alot.
I like to tinker, so just having the option throw whatever crossover and x time alignment was interesting

I also found the way i perceived sound would change drastically during the course of a tuning session when tring to tune EQ by ear. I would get it set to what i thought sounded good, then the next morning it would sound grating and obviously out of whack somwhere.
The solution to that seemd to be to add way less EQ input for any given frequency and let the speakers stand on their own.

Im pretty happy with the sound overall now but feel like i could get a bit more out of it.
I also have a 10" sub for what its worth