Little help from our Canadian members

always glad to have another voice of reason to help offset my voice of insanity

 

Uh Oh.......This is like the third time in the past day that I have agreed with you couchie......Are you getting more sensible or is my neck getting redder?

 

you better check your neck, i'm not known for being sensible. Maybe you're just drunk?

 

Nice tread guys, you all seem to have good jugement. I'd like to put in my 2 cents if ya all don't mind. All was said about rules and permits about the hunt and observators ect. I personnaly don't like any kind of slautering I do enjoy hunting, fishing and so care about the enviroment.
so heres my 2c... beeing canadian and travelled the country... I think the seal question is largely overrated. Keep in mind that the seals have almost no natural predators especially in the golf and they do breed like rabbits, ther're all over the place... like kanguroos in australia or rats in NewYork. They are not really afraid of people, I have once been jabbed by one while swiming in the golf... they break fishing nets and lobster cages somethimes even as the fishermens are trying to haul the nets, ther're like packs of wolves on these. Now don't get me wrong, I like them and personaly don't see any good reason to harm one but we do have an overpopulation of seals, like was said before, not only the fur is harvested.
I think the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society is trying to settle an old grunge against the coast guard and are using the latest event (4 dead hunters) to get the point trough
and besides the latest comments posted earlier, they added something like they got what they deserved for hunting seals.
thx for reading me

 

that just supports what i said earlier. personally i dont care about the seals. but if you do then thats fine, i have no problem with someone having a cause but that just proves my point, that all fanatics are crazy and detrimental to their cause. Personally i have Christian beliefs, but people like Jerry Falwell and Bob Jones do more to damage the name of Chrisianity than to further it. just like animal activist groups like PETA. throwing paint on people wearing fur just makes you look crazy. how is that making a point? if you want to stop seal slaughtering do it the right way. And never compare the lives of animals to the lives of humans, that just makes you seem insane.

Good post Roadkill. its good to hear from someone that actually lives in teh area and can speak with firsthand knowledge. Many times, hunting is a form of population control and is actually beneficial for the environment, which is why we have hunting seasons that are regulated and controlled.

 

that was a good article phantom. this paragraph in particular got my attention....

May has spoken out about Watson's group in the past. She threatened to resign three years ago after a Sea Shepherd Conservation board member, Dr. Jerry Vlasak, advocated assassination as a means of responding to vivisectionists. Vlasak was quickly removed from the board.

 

Thank you for your input Roadkill, I will second what ND said and am gratefull to have and welcome your input as someone who is much closer to the issue than I am. I actually had no idea that A. seals bred like rabbits, and B. that they had a lack of natural predators (I think great whites and killer whales eat seals right, I think that's what I saw on the Discovery chanel), but maybe they don't hang out off the east coast of Canada? Thank you for that information.

I also wanted to comment on some of the points that others have brought up as well. I didn't want anyone to think I was hiding from the discussion I started just because everyone didn't jump on board with me, and I am gratefull that we have had a nice open dialogue and no-one has let this turn heated.

Please keep in mind that I am not affiliated with Sea Shepherd or GreenPeace, or PETA or the Westbourough Baptist Church, or any other batch of extremists in any direction. My purpose to starting this discussion was only ever in regards to the contact between the two ships, and never about the seals themselves.

With regards to the death of the 4 sealers who died. I am sorry for their loss of life and my thoughts are with their families, and I certainly do not condone any out of turn comments from Sea Shepherd that were insulting to those men or their families. I do believe that Sea Shepherd makes a valid point if their account of the towing incident that cost these men their lives is correct (and I've not seen any dispute of their account from the Canadian government). Those men I believe should have been evac'ed from their ship before the Coast Guard ice breaker that was towing them got underway. The coast guard stated that there are not guidelines or procedures in place for towing non ice class vessels through ice fields, and perhaps as such, permitting non ice class vessels to participate in the hunt should be re-evaluated. I do feel for the families of the sealers, but I do not believe that anyone should try to lay this particular incident at the feet of Sea Shepherd.

I truely support almost everything you just said there ND. Particularly, the paint on the fur coat thing. I mean hell, those coats are expensive, and likely insured (I know my grandmother purchased some kind of replacement insurance plan when she bought hers 20 some years ago), so all they succede in doing by destroying one coat is effectively kill however many animals it takes to make the replacement coat. The part where I differ with you is in the never part of your statement about comparing animal lives to human lives. In most cases, your statement is true, but never is an absolute that causes the problems. Sometimes, the good of the animals may outweigh the good of the humans. Example, those guys a while back that were antagonizing the lion (maybe it was a tiger) at the zoo and got mauled. In that case the life of that cat was ended, because it did what it should have done, and the humans, (as supposedly the more evolved beings) should have been the ones to die. (Yes, I get that once a wild animal has tasted human blood, it can't continue to live, but it never should have come to that, as those guys never should have been that close to the animal.) Admitadly, a somewhat extreme example, but my point is just that I don't think you can use the term never here.

Like I said from the outset, I am not speaking out against the seal hunt, or really having an opinion about it one way or another, and I absolutely get that hunting is population controll, and I am not a vegatarian, I eat meat, wear leather, and even remove vermin (squirels and rabbits) from my yard by lethal means. That said, I always go for a one shot kill, and if not I immediately follow that shot with a second shot to finish the job. I certainly do not want the animal in my yard, but I also do not want it to suffer. I think that part of the problem that people have with the seal hunt is the manner in which they are killed. I am the first to admit that perhaps this is media ignorance on my part, but as I understand it, they are wounded by rifle to prevent them fleeing, and are then either clubbed to death, and or clubbed and then skinned alive. If that is not correct, then please someone set me straight and I'll imediately retract that statement, if that is correct then I am sure that everyone can agree that there is no reason for an animal to suffer. No hunter I know ever goes for anything other than a one shot kill. Though this is way off topic, the Asian shark fishermen, who simply land the shark, cut off it's fins and then throw a living shark back into the water to suffocate (if a shark can't move through the water to pass water over it's gills it can not breathe) There are plenty of other uses for the rest of that shark, I mean I personally love a mako steak. Anyway, this is quite off topic from my original point of two captains who both should have backed down to avoid a collision, but if all these comercial hunts were conducted in a more humane manner they might get less flack.

Regards,

 

I can agree with those two points. as far as the guys picking on the lion then getting mauled, i belive thats called natural selection. if you are stupid enough to piss off a lion then you deserve whatever that cat can dish out.

I am like you, i am against animal cruelty or suffering. i dont know any of hte details or particulars of how the seals are "harvested" but if what you say is true then i would have a problem with it. if you are gonna kill and animal for food or fur or whatever, thats fine, i dont care. but there is no reason for it not to be quick and as painless as possible. No reason for unecessary pain or suffering. looks like we pretty much have the same mindset Mav. except i think that coast guard ship should have sunk that ship with the crazy captain

 

The main argument of those opposed to sealing is their belief that the method used to kill the animals is cruel. This belief was mostly influenced in by images broadcast by the media and anti-sealing groups in the past. The majority of seals are now shot with a rifle, but it is still legal to kill it by lethal blow to the head (ie: clubbing). Anyone know how cattle are killed in a slaughter house? Lethal blow to the head.

Whether the seal is shot or "clubbed", law requires the main arteries under the flipper be severed immediately. Failure to do so will result in the revoking of ones sealing license. Procedures are followed as this hunt is closely scrutinized and observed - the hunters are aware of this.

Shooting the animal to wound it so it doesn't escape is totally false. Purely media propaganda. It is never a pleasing sight to witness the killing of an animal by any means. Media and video cameras are not permitted into slaughter houses, but observation of the seal hunt is permitted by permit. While all livestock processed for human consumption bleed, seal blood on pure white ice and snow presents a much more horrible image due to the contrast between red blood and white snow. This is also a widely used image in the campaign.

Another widely used image is the pure white baby seal pup. While in earlier times this animal was harvested for their coat, it hasn't been lawful to do so for nearly 25 years. Images of hunters standing above cute, white, baby seals are staged by activists - as they haven't been lawful to hunt for quite some time. It paints a powerful image to boost their campaign, but it isn't reality. While hundreds of images exist of men standing above a cute baby seal with a club, none exist of the aftermath. I guess they couldn't wait around another 5 seconds to take another photo...

 

Once again, its good to hear from another Canadian member that actually has some real world info and insight on the situation. thanks fortech!

 

Updating current events...

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/04/14/mowatsheppard.html

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=442322

Their Outrageous Tactics have Gone too Far. Its about time the authorities intervened before someone got hurt. They have a history of crazy tactics that endanger lives...

THIS INFORMATION WAS TAKEN FROM THEIR OWN WEBSITE:

1979
On July 16th, 1979, the Sea Shepherd found the Sierra and chased it into the port of Leixoes. Captain Watson rammed the Sierra twice in harbor, tearing the hull open to the waterline and forcing the ship into port for repairs. After a million dollars of uninsured repairs, the Sierra was sunk by Sea Shepherd operatives in Lisbon harbor in Portugal on February 6, 1980.

1980
April 1980, Sea Shepherd operatives sank two Spanish whalers in to the port of Vigo, Spain, (Ibsa I and Ibsa II)after Spain refused to comply with quota regulations on fin whales.

1986
In November of 1986, Sea Shepherd engineers Rod Coronado and David Howitt arrived in Iceland and scuttled (sank) two of the four Icelandic whaling ships at dockside. They also destroyed the whale meat processing plant in Iceland.

1992
In 1992, Sea Shepherd focused its efforts on opposing illegal commercial whaling by Norway. The day after Christmas, a Sea Shepherd crew led by Captain Paul Watson sank the illegally-operated Norwegian whaler Nybraena in the Lofoten Islands in Northern Norway.

1994
In January 1994, a Sea Shepherd crew scuttled (sank) the illegal Norwegian whaler Senet in harbor in Southern Norway.

1998
In 1998, the illegal Norwegian whaler Morild, owned by the most notorious whale killer in Norway - Stienar Bastesen - was sunk.

2005-06
The whaling fleet is located on December 22nd and flees from Sea Shepherd’s chase. On December 25th, the Farley Mowat intercepts the course line of the Japanese factory ship Nisshin Maru and attempts to foul her propellers.

he expedition continued into January of 2006 with the Farley Mowat chasing the Nisshin Maru for three thousand miles along the Antarctic coast. On January 8th, the Farley Mowat once again approaches the Nisshin Maru and deploys prop foulers.

 

They're terrorists. their boat should be sunk

 

Just a couple of other Paul Watson facts....He was raised in St.Andrews New Brunswick,a small town 40 minutes from my City and in 1978 he was expelled from Greenpeace by a vote of 11 to 1 for not conforming to thier non-violence policy....His was the only nay vote.

Cruelty to animals and illegal harvesting is something I could never agree with....same goes for Eco-Terrorists endangering the lives and property of law-abiding,hard working people.

 

I at this point am not seeking to take a position on the seal hunt or the actions of the Sea Shepherd group, I am only trying to provide both sides of the story as I did in my opening post. Here is the link to the Sea Shepherd press release.

http://www.seashepherd.org/news/media_080414_1.html

This one is another story in the Canadian press, that is much the same as the two Fortech posted, but does make mention of the dispute over the location of the boarding.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080414.SEAL14/TPStory/National

Just to clarify, Agreed upon international maratime law lists a 12 mile boundry from the mainland as being the line of demarcation between national and international water. It is also generally agreed upon that a vessel can not be borded in international water unless a high speed pursuit began in national waters and ended in international waters. So with that information it seems that more details of the story need to be released to determine if the boarding was done correctly or not.

I just wanted to provide perspective, because as we all know there are three sides to every story, side one, side two and the truth.

As such, I have learned quite a bit as a result of starting this thread (as a favor to a friend of mine who is an ardent Sea Shepherd supporter). Remember I did not initially take a stance on the seal hunt, just on the collision of two vessels, and provided both sides of that story as well.

1. I have learned that Sea Shepherd seems to have a longer history of dangerous tactics, and is regarded as more extreme than Greenpeace, and it does seem like just a matter of time before they really hurt someone.

2. I have learned that seals have no natural predators to speak of, and that they breed like rabbits, and that the hunt is a means of population control.

3. I have learned that red blood on white snow and ice makes for very dramatic and emotion evoking photos. (I suppose that stands to reason, but I had not thought of it in those terms before)

4. I have learned that the seal hunt and the devices that are used in it are not inhumane when done and used correctly.

5. I have learned that there is a huge amount of spin doctoring going on from both sides in this story.

Example1. From Sea Sheperd, the use of the term ramming (in reference to the collision of the two ships) If the ships did in-fact touch I suspect it would have been more of a graze, however, the term ramming does suggest something more akin to a demolition derby.

Example 2. From the Canadian news media, the use of the phrase had thrown acid at officials before Yes, the sea shepherd people had thrown bottles or a foul smelling liquid on-to sealing and whaleing ships before, and technically by definition of it's PH it is technically more acid than base. However, the termonology used leads people to think they are talking about sulfuric or hydrochloric acid here. But the liquid in question poses no danger to anyone who would have come into contact with it, and all it does is stink.

Anyway, I do thank everyone who has contributed to this thread, I have learned some new things, and hope everyone else has as well. I am really proud of all the Tacoma World members who have had a reasonable and open minded discussion on what could have easilly become a heated debate, and become less than friendly. I would not have wanted to have been responsible for for starting a thread that saw fellow Tacoma enthusiasts getting pissed at eachother, over something that really didn't have a place on a Tacoma website, and something that I really never should have placed here without doing alot more research myself first. Had I know all I know now when I opened this thread I never would have done so. On that note I am going to ask that one of our mods lock this thread now so that we end on a positive note.

Sincerely,

Adam (Maverick491)