2023 Smart Alternator incompatible with DC-DC Charger

@Max8 Here is his post in another thread giving a bit more information:
https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads...n-tacoma-350-amps.753010/page-4#post-30248814

 

"The charge light does not come on as it must be using a different circuit or shunt to see amperage draw."

Thanks! Which charge light are we discussing, in what scenario please? Sorry to be obtuse.

After spending an obscene amount of time engineering 75 lbs of crap into a small space in my camper for dc conversion and inverter, crawling around under truck to run 6awg in conduit with a busted rib, and endless troubleshooting and experimentation, I'm ready to for
Some major run on sentences. Whoops no I'm ready to try this idea.
Unless someone tells me up front why it still won't defeat the dang computer.

 

Have you done the quick troubleshooting some of us recommended? There is no shortage of people who have hooked up DCDCs to 3rd gen alternators. I think you are making this way more complicated than it really is. There is clearly more than one of us that do this kind of stuff for a living.

 

@Max8 would it be a good diagnostic to try this shutdown detection override in section 4.8? Might learn something?

 

how much volts is needed to tell the victron that the engine is on?

 

The manual has a lot of good info. What is the voltage to the Victon when it cuts out?

 

There is a ton of what if, and maybe going on in this post and ninm not going to read it.. I'll tell you what works.

This is a 2016 Toyota 4runner sr5, 4.0L no engine mods only alt upgrade
Anyone know where to install a second alternator please message me.

-Pull your stock alternator
-add a mechman alt for Toyota, (I used the 450amp)
-Install 6 500F 2.7V 3000F Super Capacitors so they equal 16v total (you can buy these preassembled, cuz they are dangerous)
**P.s. 3000f is a bit extreme, 1000f will prob work for you
-Do the big 3 upgrade, Look it up on youtube (if your beefing you power system up for one thing without going all in, don't expect it last. The stock parts of the electrical can not handle this and you will starve the upgrades, that's why you hear all these "my new alternator burned out again" stories)
-Minimum of 2 12v 100ah lithium batteries see **BATTMOD at bottom for modification needed and battery exact battery brand and tips on lithium in a 12v system (I installed 4 lifep04 100ah litrhium batteries, 2 under the hood, 2 in the back by my amps, they are my starting batteries and my stereo batteries, I do not run a isolator because)
-Use 2 1/0 copper wire (do not cheap out on copper coated aluminum crap, just don't.) from the alt to the appropriate circuit breaker, I have 1 250amp breaker between every 1/0 awg ofc run from shunt and battery, and each battery gets 2 runs of 1/0 swg ofc cables to each positive battery post under to hood, from the front shunt to the rear shunt I run 4 1/0 swg with 8 100amp breakers, 4 on each end of each run of ofc to my and in the bck I run the same 2 runs to each battery, and 2 runs to the supercap bank and 4 to my amps for you that would be you charge controller if you think you still need it after this.
*Your wires can be crimped, but I prefer to use the cups style end pieces, io faster the O part in my vise, grab n my torch and solder with my wire stripped and twisted as tight as I can get it I hear the up with the torch and fill the cup with solder, once its molten solder I heat it a little longer then I put the wire in the molten solder and hold it there, add more heat to be sure the solder mixes in it's the strands of the wire and hold it there until its solid, then add heat shrinking over it while its warm. Perfect connections.
*Last but one of the most important parts to this is the Toyota internal charge regulator. Without changing this there is no point in doing any of this, as you will prob kill your batteries? I don't really know what happens to lithium if you never charge them to more than half capacity, but feels like a waste to go all out on batteries and not use them to specish, (see **BATTMOD below to understand the ish part of specish) -Using a volt meter with the positives connected and the car runninng on chec the voltage from the alternator post to the engine block that is your zero mark for ground, prob about 13.1v or so, then for each battery with your volt meter check the positive terminal on the battery your grounding, and put the meters negative where you want to ground the battery make sure you get that zero mark voltage we looked for earlier or maybe one or two points low, when you find that place if its solos piece of steel or frame, drill a hole and use a bold with star washers to fasten the cable to the ground.
-under your hood there is a fuse labeled alt its like 7.5 or 5 amp. You need to replace it with, a diode, you can experiment with different ones to get the desired charge voltage from your alternator, I don't remember what ones I used but its 3 in series to get me to 14.2v, 16v is bad not catastrophic but not sustainable you will fry something sooner than later, stock for my 2016 is 13.1v, for my amps and batteries this is unacceptable, 14.4 would be great but Toyota some reason decided 13.1 was a good number for AGM battery charging, its not but whatever, search eBay for Mini-Fuse Alternator Voltage Booster Toyota Tacoma/4Runner/Tundra/Etc don't pay more than 30$ there are some for 95$, its the same thing but prettier. Its just a fuse holder with diodes like described above. This allows your alternator to output 14.4 volts to your cars electrical system and the batteries.
my lithium charge at 14.2 and the BMS that's built in to each battery stops charging them when they reach 14.2 volts. Individually
So I never over charge my batteries, and the Toyota computer keeps the alternator regulating at 14.4 changing as the computer needs to, except its stock voltage was 13.1 now it's 14.4v so your voltage can drop to 13v and up to 15.4 volts depending on what the "smart" chare controller tells it to do.


**BATTMOD section
I use Amazon's Redodo 12V 100Ah Mini LiFePO4 Battery, Smallest Lithium Battery with Upgraded 100A BMS, Max 1280Wh, Up to 15000 Deep Cycles Battery with 10 Years Lifetime for RV, Trolling Motor, Solar Home, Camping.
I modify them by opening them up I add a shunt from the negative contact between the batteries and the BMS and add a shunt to the outside of the battery. Because the BMS on these batteries is 100amp, I can only get so much into and out of them so if its charging at 100a I cant draw from it, my new shunt bypasses the BMS and lets me pull from the battery, I could charge ity that way, but lithium always has double the output c rating of the input c rating, at least my experience and other technical writings, not all but most. So I only connect my amps to this negative on the battery, and I connect all of these together with the 1/0 awg ofc copper cables. My amp draw at full tilt is 560ish amps at 14v I cann not sustain that draw for long without watching my voltage drop, but my batteries don't get hot, and I can hear my engine idle speed up after a minute or so of music. Wheni turn it down the alt keeps charging the batteries and eventually goes back to normal state, once the batteries are back to the BMS regulated voltage.

I hope that solves any problems you guys had with understanding the smart Toyota electrical system. If you plan to scale this down, I'm sure it would be fine as I originally started at 100ah batteries and the stock alternator but always with the voltage booster. I've not had any problems with this system at all in the last 3 years. And the voltage booster has been there for 5 years

 

Lol OP would rather go through all this effort and probably still have the same issue instead of doing 5 minutes of troubleshooting. He needs none of what you are describing. It is a simple DCDC buck/boost converter that is a few hundred watts.

 

Clearly, by the 4 pages of nonsense I've seen here you point is so wrong. A buck converter to power a charge converter to charge rv batteries would have to be huge to get a decent charge on those batteries, and every time you convert power you have efficiency loss. But do what you want.. this works, 4pages of what ever your doing with buck converters and charge controllers seems at best hardly functional, everything I posted can be scaled down to fit if you want to half as it then waste your time on extra components and added loss from converting amps to higher volts only to convert those higher volts back to amps and loose efficiency along the way.. go for it. Or boost your smart voltage add appropriate wire to avoid fire, and convert to all lithium.buck converters to charge controller and all kinds of ways to get your alternator to power up to get the charge controller to start charging sounds totally nor fine. You gonna ruin your winch off a buck converter? Or charge controller? No if your winch needs amperage your going to do some variation of what I described, you want extra power for accessories? Maybe go in for some vanlife and need to power a 4000 watt inverter, let me know how that goes with a buck converter,, actually dont. I know how that's going to go. You want automotive electrical solutions, look to car audio specialist, we've been dealing with this longer at higher power levels than the " I want to add a second battery to power my lights when I go camping" guy. My solution can do that, at scale, it can also charge your off grid battery bank if your solar panels don't get sun for a few days if needed. So yeah op would rather go through this than a 20a dcdc buck converter, (and why a buck converter? You trying to raise your 12v to 48v to send power to a charge converter, stock alternator is what 180 amp at 12v so its what , maybe 30amp at 48 volt is you figurein 60% efficiency, and I think that's probably a generous number as 12v doesn't go distance well)

Perfect example of why so many pages to solve this simple problem lol but thanks for repeating the other posts that didn't work either lol

 

Holy shit what are you on? This is a buck/boost converter with a rated 360w output with a charge controller algorithm. It is not intended to power up winches. Lol. Ive literally designed power electronics for a living. Good luck OP if you decide to take this guy's advice.

 

do you know how much volts is needed to trigger the victron/renogy to charge? it needs an ignition trigger for smart alternators.

 

So theres 2 ways. You can hook up the L pin to ground and it will start charging below 5v. Or the easier way is to hook up to the H pin to an ign source(meaning powered when the engine is on), and anything greater than 3v will start charging. In the past I have gotten ign sources from the internal fuse box. I typically use ign sources i dont care about losing, like say sunroof power etc. This way if something goes wrong in the middle of nowhere, i dont lose power to my ecu for example. Throw an add a fuse tap on the sunroof fuse, even if you dont have a sunroof and you will be good to go.

 

i have an empty fuse on the engine fuse box, 0 power when off but only 7 volts when on.

so it pwoers above 3 volts. thank you

 

Using a

$465 bcdc1225d REDARC 25A in-vehicle DC to DC charger with MPPT — dual input for solar & alternator charging, green power priority - 12 or 24V battery charger suitable with AGM, gel, lithium lifepo4 batteries

bcdc1225d from redarc mounted in front of radiator with zero issues for 4 years now

 

Im not sure what that empty slot is but i would just verify it can source a high impedance load like the remote input i referenced on the dcdc.

 

Theres countless people that have run dcdc's on tacomas with smart alternators. The only smart thing about it is it most likely is on the same LIN bus as the IBS and its used to not overcharge the battery and keep it at a float voltage while running, after recharging. The alternator has no issues driving a buck boost dcdc. You will just see higher currents at the lower voltages.

OP, I am just trying to save you time and money, you dont need another alternator or super caps lol.

 

This is supplied as information only:
As far as I have seen in studying the schematics the Alternator LIN is a direct point-to-point connection between the Alternator and the Engine Control ECU. I do not recognize your reference to "IBS", so I can't comment and is the reason for my comment - What is the IBS?

Other LIN connections I have found on the vehicle:
Power Windows and Door Locks via the Body Control ECM. This is a shared bus.
Steering Lock via the Certification ECU.
Heated seats and Auto AC control via the AC Amplifier and the Auto AC Control.

 

Ibs is intelligent battery sensor, you will find it on the battery terminal itself. It measures current, temperature, soc.

Lin is a communications protocol for non asil rated functions. Its a cheaper comms protocol than can and used for things like battery management, body controls, door latch status, etc.

In this system, the lin bus is used to communicate battery status to the ecu. The ecu can then command over lin to the alternator to vary voltage. This voltage will never go below float voltage for a given temperature of a lead acid.

Edit: i looked real quickly for a picture, tacoma might not have an ibs which is surprising to me. Other toyota vehicles with the 3.5l for sure have it. They call it the battery state sensor.

Source: i used to work for an oem

 

IBS - like a Hall Effect sensor? If so this vehicle does not have one, or at least I have not seen it physically or in the schematics. AND I have removed and/or increased the size of every major power and ground cable on the vehicle. I have seen one on a US make and model; in that case it was on the ground wire off the battery.

My suspicions is that the DC Battery health is taken directly from the battery voltage supplied to the Engine ECU and/or the Body ECU or even the Combination Meter. My aftermarket Ultra Gauge has at least two DC Voltage displays, and they differ by a small bit. I haven't looked in Techstream, yet.

I guess the Alternator LIN could tell the ECU what it "thinks" the current output is. Or perhaps the ECU by its instructions to the Alternator to increase/decrease voltage does its own calculations. Either would be a guesstimate.

This could also be why there is no Amp Meter on this vehicle.