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3rd Gen HID vs LED vs Halogen H11 projector headlights

Discussion in '3rd Gen. Tacomas (2016+)' started by crashnburn80, Jan 25, 2019.

  1. Dec 20, 2019 at 9:11 AM
    #2201
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    Shouldn't be an issue. Keep in mind the H9 is a stock bulb, so the headlight assembly is intended for that bulb heat level. The only difference is the volume in the low beam is smaller in the projector than the high beam reflector housing, meaning the projector will be hotter.

    Definitely don't apply standard rain-x to plastic! It says specifically not to on the bottle. Wouldn't want to damage your headlights.

    Rather than covering the headlights with olive oil if running LEDs, I'd consider just swapping to H9s for the winter months then swapping the LEDs back come spring. If wanting a whiter light and high output one might consider the Hella Performance 2.0 H9s or one of the whiter performance H11s from the original thread. Coating the lenses in oil is really just a very short term band-aid at best.

    JW Speakers heated products are pretty slick! Truck-lite (Rigid's parent company) also makes heated LED headlights. Unfortunately these are all in standardized sealed beam replacement style housings not applicable to our trucks, unless you drive one of the older Toyota pickups.

    I might have to try that to keep the headlights clearer in general, as we get plenty of rain in the Seattle area. I also did not know they made a plastic product version. Thanks for sharing!

    Brr! Last year two other family family members and myself were driving in the same winter snowy conditions in eastern WA, each of their vehicles were equipped with HIDs. One was OEM RX350, and the other was the Xenon Depot Philips kit in a LX470. Both the HIDs continually froze over requiring them to stop and clear the headlights. My 2nd Gen running 85/80w Osram Hyper H4s obviously had no problem. While HIDs will provide better resistance to freezing than LEDs, HIDs will freeze over, but I think the likelihood is more inline with the water content in the snow for it to be sticky. At -31 degrees the snow is probably pretty small flakes and dry, reducing the sticking issue.
     
    davidstacoma and Ted Steel like this.
  2. Dec 20, 2019 at 10:23 AM
    #2202
    MiTacoTRD

    MiTacoTRD Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Dec 20, 2019
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  3. Dec 23, 2019 at 2:35 PM
    #2203
    ovrlndkull

    ovrlndkull STUKASFK - HC4LIFE

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    Would these be better than the SAE rigid driving light light bars?
     
  4. Dec 23, 2019 at 4:21 PM
    #2204
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    Candela, Lux at 10 meters, beam distance and color temperature are all better by spec with the Pro6 than the Rigid SAE light bar, meaning they’ll produce a higher intensity beam that projects further while having a more ideal 5000k color. Focus is critical for distance projection and larger reflectors are a more efficient way to focus and project than tiny ones in a light bar. However, I haven’t yet tested Rigid’s SAE light bar, so I cannot say what the pattern differences are. Intensity and distance projection are important, but doesn’t tell the full picture if Rigid produced a wider flatter pattern that kept the light in a more usable area, even though it didn’t project as far.
     
  5. Dec 23, 2019 at 4:59 PM
    #2205
    ovrlndkull

    ovrlndkull STUKASFK - HC4LIFE

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    Ok so after the smart guy info I got on paper the KCs are better but you haven't compared side by side yet to see the complete differences. And this is why I make my lighting choices based on your data. You can make all the smart guy info easy to digest and understand without all the marketing jargon.
     
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  6. Dec 23, 2019 at 6:11 PM
    #2206
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    @Toy_Runner sent me some Cebies to compare.

    KC Pro6 6” vs Cebie Super Oscar 9”

    The 9" Cebie model is huge! One of the interesting things here, is the KCs use LEDs pointed to the sides of the reflector assembly, whereas the Cibie's use LEDs pointing up and down. KC uses the up and down arrangement in their G4 gravity lights (primarily fog), but all other gravity lights are to the sides.

    69D85B51-6BC3-4C0F-AF0D-C868CA381BFB.jpg

    Cebie
    E4EB7950-A632-4EC3-B729-1B14E53AFF67.jpg

    KC
    3C9DB611-C271-42EB-93AC-134BA665FF16.jpg

    Though both an SAE driving compliant beam, the beam patterns are quiet different. The Cibie have a very full and wide driving pattern carrying higher intensity light further toward the edges of the patterns and overall being wider than the KC while also producing less up light, whereas the KCs are more of a spot focus with lighter side proximity lighting.

    Cibies draw 14.5w
    8199600D-82EE-4493-A0AE-59BA6345B3E0.jpg

    KCs draw 22w.
    37A66484-9693-4AF9-BAC4-7EC8F75BDF79.jpg

    Although larger reflectors are more efficient, the KCs also pull 50% more power.

    95767B23-0336-42C5-BE57-E0B356A50847.jpg

    Looking at peak intensity alone isn't a great comparison in this case, because of the pattern difference. KCs spot-like pattern will project further, but I think the Cibie pattern is going to produce a more moderate/usable light pattern for most street driving scenarios, even though it will not project as far. So I wouldn't say there is necessarily a clear winner here. I would say the Cibie pattern is likely more ideal for most, unless you are looking to maximize the distance projection in which the KC is a better choice.

    Color wise the KCs spec 5000k, I’ve measured them at 5100k. The Cibies are measured at 5600k

    So while on paper the KCs are a decisive winner on paper at 46% higher peak intensity, in practice it is a bit more complicated. For my SAE J581 aux high beams, I selected the KC Pro6 based on specs. I’m looking to maximize distance projection in a driving light.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2020
  7. Dec 23, 2019 at 11:06 PM
    #2207
    Sasquatchian

    Sasquatchian Well-Known Member

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    Cibié (distributed through Valeo) has been in the lighting business for a long long time and it doesn't surprise to see their lights with a more usable beam pattern. I've been using their products since the mid 1970's and have never been disappointed. Just a note that they still market their 5-3/4" round H1 bulbed pencil beam that will throw light a long long way. And with a different bulb that same (or very similar) reflector/lens combo served as hi/lo beam for the venerable Citroen 2CV. I would (and have) buy Cibié over KC any day.
     
    Toy_Runner and crashnburn80 [OP] like this.
  8. Dec 24, 2019 at 3:14 PM
    #2208
    Toy_Runner

    Toy_Runner Well-Known Member

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    Excellent post @crashnburn80. Glad you got some clear pictures to compare the beam patterns.

    So, for anyone else looking at these, Valeo/Cibie offers these in three sizes, a "Mini-Oscar" at 5.75" (iirc) the "Oscar," a 7" lamp, and the "Super Oscar" a 9" lamp. These were fairly new to the market when I picked my set up in early spring 2017.

    These are the 75,000 cd output model, they also offer a 120,000 cd model, but I was unable to find the higher output Super Oscar for sale at that time. Initially I was concerned that these would prove insufficient in output, but they are definitely not lacking.

    I have no photos of them illuminating the roadway, but my subjective impression is this: they provide a wide, even beam with no shadows or dead spots in the beam. It punches 1000' or further down the road, but provides a wide enough beam so as to be usable on twisty roads.

    I aim them (admittedly not "legally as I do not use them with any traffic) parallel to the road and slightly "cross eyed," which gives the center coverage a bit higher intensity, while also allowing each lamp to be "looking into" curves in the roadway.
     
    crashnburn80 [OP] likes this.
  9. Dec 24, 2019 at 4:38 PM
    #2209
    Sasquatchian

    Sasquatchian Well-Known Member

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    I remember having two of those old H1's on my Datsun 510 and on a long straight dark road, you could actually see things a half mile away. The only way to aim them was to take them out on an empty road and tweak them 'til they were right. At that distance, anything off even a little at 25 feet was compounded too much that far out.

    For a comparative note, I measured the brand new LED's on the Forester I bought for my gf last week, which are really quite nice. They came in at just under 7000 Kelvin with a CRI of about 63. And the adjusters are a real bitch to get to. Was a bit surprised to see them so cool, but they work just fine. Should be attacking my Tacoma LED's on Friday or Saturday depending on the rain here in L.A. Should be fun.
     
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  10. Dec 24, 2019 at 4:56 PM
    #2210
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    7000k and 63 CRI is going to make for some pretty fatiguing lights.
     
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  11. Dec 26, 2019 at 7:04 AM
    #2211
    OmegaMan73

    OmegaMan73 Well-Known Member

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    My wife has a 2019 Toyota Rav 4, on Christmas eve we were driving home just after dark and it was raining. There were no street lights on the road we were traveling but lots of traffic going both directions. Her headlights were useless! I asked her if they were turned on and they were so I had her put on the brights. They also did nothing to increase the visibility. Now the rain wasn't crazy, the wipers were on the first setting but the roads were wet and it seemed like the glare off the road completely neutralized her headlights. She has the factory LED'S in her car. Does anyone have a recommended replacement for these crappy factory headlights? They are so blue.
     
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  12. Dec 26, 2019 at 9:08 AM
    #2212
    Claudiomartinof

    Claudiomartinof Well-Known Member

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    My wife has a 2018 and headlights are bad too... would have thought that the new leds were going to be a huge upgrade...
     
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  13. Dec 26, 2019 at 10:53 AM
    #2213
    skierd

    skierd Well-Known Member

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    New technology often doesn't mean better. Most trims get a Poor rating for headlights from IIHS, except the base models using an LED reflector that gets a M (for moderate I think, but medicore sounds more appropriate) and only the Hybrid Limited with adaptive headlights that gets a good.

    It does mean there's little option for upgrades unfortunately, short of doing a full-on retrofit, as there's nothing to be replaced or upgraded. They're sealed units.
     
  14. Dec 26, 2019 at 10:54 AM
    #2214
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    These types of complaints are not uncommon. The blue LED light can make it more difficult to see in poor weather conditions compared to their halogen counterparts. Blue light on a dark black road doesn't provide great contrast and short wave LED light scatters on wet surfaces providing glare off the road surface. I've read a few suggestions to test drive new cars at night to evaluate the headlights as these complaints become more common, especially among older drivers.

    Since LEDs headlights are sealed units they cannot effectively be altered. The only solutions available involve changing out the headlight assemblies to either OEM halogens (if they were an option) and upgrade from there, or a proper retrofit starting from a new halogen based assembly. Good news is that if you did a swap, the OEM LED units can often fetch a good amount in resale for those wanting factory LEDs. Seems backwards I realize. A family member near retirement age has the same issue with her factory LED lights in her new Nissan. I did the leg work to convert the vehicle back to halogen but she didn't want to because it is a lease. Her solution instead is to minimize driving at night, especially if it is raining.
     
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  15. Dec 26, 2019 at 3:31 PM
    #2215
    Toy_Runner

    Toy_Runner Well-Known Member

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    An important thing to keep in mind about the IIHS tests is that they do not check or adjust the headlight aim of each vehicle. A misaimed lamp is a bad starting point for the test. They likely do this as it represents hiw the typical vehicle is setup/equipped by tye manufacturer. But the result is that a lamp system that is designed to be efficient and effective, is not genuinely tested. So while their heart is in the right place with these tests, their actual validity is in question.

    And unfortunately, the marketing departments responsible for "blue=daylight white=good headlights" are still in charge, hence all the super blue oem headlamps (and an emphasis by many HID projector retrofitters to enhance the "blue-band" effect).

    @Sasquatchian

    7000k led headlamps? Wow, they are really pushing the legal limit for what is considered "white light" under federal law with that high a color temperature. I do not envy your wife the next time she has to drive through heavy fog.
     
  16. Dec 27, 2019 at 9:35 AM
    #2216
    MrMccrackin

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    Today’s project, headlight upgrade!


    9BB21D15-1E94-4186-A892-6F64CD5D7095.jpg
     
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  17. Dec 27, 2019 at 9:41 AM
    #2217
    Claudiomartinof

    Claudiomartinof Well-Known Member

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    Last week I installed h9 on low beams and ge megalight 130 on fogs.

    im pleased with the results. I don’t think I’m going with hids or leds...
     
  18. Dec 27, 2019 at 11:10 AM
    #2218
    broadway848

    broadway848 Member

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    I just wanted to thank Crash and all the other constructive contributors to this (and the SAE fog) topic. I love my truck, but I was really underwhelmed with the performance of the low beams and fog lights. Using the wealth of information here, I was able to make informed choices, instead of my first instinct which was just to install LED bulbs. I switched the lows to the GE Megalight +130's and swapped out the OEM fogs for amber KC G4's, and am now very happy with the performance. Thanks again!
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2019
  19. Dec 27, 2019 at 11:50 AM
    #2219
    MrMccrackin

    MrMccrackin Well-Known Member

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    Agreed!

    Crash is the man!

    He has completed all this testing on his own dime in an effort to educate the masses on proper illumination!

    Thanks to Crash’s efforts not only did I learn more than I thought possible about lighting, I was able to make much more informed choices. I upgrade my low beams to H9 and fogs to KC G4’s. So far I am extremely happy with the results!

    I was literally thinking how much better the night and inclement weather driving will be: “she blinded me with science” started playing in my head.
     
  20. Dec 28, 2019 at 8:25 AM
    #2220
    SpeySquatch

    SpeySquatch Function over Form

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    What rack is that? Looks perfect
     

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