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3rd Gen HID vs LED vs Halogen H11 projector headlights

Discussion in '3rd Gen. Tacomas (2016+)' started by crashnburn80, Jan 25, 2019.

  1. Jan 10, 2020 at 5:06 AM
    #2361
    TacoFergie

    TacoFergie Well-Known Member

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    I completely agree! OEM LED headlights are really good depending on the vehicle, I think many people assume they can get the same performance from a PNP LED. All of my vehicles have a retrofit, my 2015 Tacoma was the last one as it had the best overall output of all the vehicles using Philips Racing Vision H4's.

    Edit: I used the Philips H9's in my wifes 2012 ford fusion, which helped a lot. But the optics just aren't very good in that projector. Can't fix poor optics no matter how good the bulb is. I installed Morimoto EVOX-R projectors, XB55 bulbs and Hella Gen 3 ballasts. Best move ever for that car!
     
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  2. Jan 10, 2020 at 5:51 AM
    #2362
    CAG Gonzo

    CAG Gonzo Ascendant Spaghetti

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    Sees post about bulb comparisons in our projectors.

    LEDs determined to be inferior in our projectors by means of meticulous analysis and comparison.

    Buys LEDs anyway? :confused:

    I mean, you do you, but I think it's valid that your...methods come under question.
     
  3. Jan 10, 2020 at 5:52 AM
    #2363
    Joe671

    Joe671 YouTube Mechanic

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    I've read this thread quite a bit. I've gone from H11 +130 to the Philips H9's. I understand why people are drawn to LED's. Something about the "cooler" color versus the warmer Halogens. For me I don't want to spend the money on an HID kit and have to deal with install or close to a grand on morimoto leds. If there is a drop in option I'm all for it. I'm happy with the H9's. Extremely happy when I get on the dark stretch of highway and the road is lit up. But I'm also interested in how the Hikari "Eyes of Megatron" perform and may just fork out the money to try them.
     
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  4. Jan 10, 2020 at 6:02 AM
    #2364
    ‘19swdclboff-road

    ‘19swdclboff-road Well-Known Member

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    Just for reference. Top picture is the GE+130 H11
    Bottom is the Hikari “eyes of megatron” H11
    1E50AF5B-7772-4F90-9C15-29AC538BA0D1.jpg 11A8BE90-40BF-4ED9-BE59-763057EE953B.jpg Not a very good comparison photo; but driving, the light output difference is negligible. I could be happy with either option in. I got the Hikari from Amazon for 40% off recently so gave it a try.
     
  5. Jan 10, 2020 at 6:02 AM
    #2365
    TacoFergie

    TacoFergie Well-Known Member

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    I see the draw to the color too. But for HID's it really isn't expensive unless you splurge for the XD Philips rebased bulbs plus it is superior output to halogen and LED. If you go with NHK bulbs ($30), Morimoto harness ($30) and used Hella ballasts (local U-Pull-it from an Audi A4 or A6 usually around $10-$15 ea depending on the yard) you are likely right around $100 if you want to put in a little work.

    Now if you do a wire harness upgrade to 12awg wire to the Halogen bulb, that will help output as well. I'm curious if with OVTune you can play with alternator output? I noticed an upgrade in output on my 2nd gen when I went from 14.2v to 14.7v with stock wiring. I did that because I have an AGM battery so it would keep a better charge on the AGM battery.
     
  6. Jan 10, 2020 at 7:04 AM
    #2366
    Joe671

    Joe671 YouTube Mechanic

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    Good to know. I would probably splurge. Just me lol.


    40% is pretty good. If they go on sale again I will probably pick them up just to try them out myself. Otherwise I'll stick with the H9's.
     
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  7. Jan 10, 2020 at 7:21 AM
    #2367
    TacoFergie

    TacoFergie Well-Known Member

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    The thing to look for when shopping for HID bulbs is to ensure it has a UV coating. Most cheaper bulbs do not have a UV coating which will start to burn the bowl of the projector as it is essentially giving the bowl a very intense sun burn. The Hella Gen 3 ballasts are amazing! Extremely fast start up, full power in about 3 seconds. I like the Denso ballasts as well but they are not water proof so you would have to find a solution for that. Plus there are far more Audi's in the junk yard than Toyota's. haha

    I did forget to mention that an adapter harness would be needed to go from the D2S connector that is used on the ballast to the H11 HID bulb pigtails, thats about $10.
     
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  8. Jan 10, 2020 at 8:16 AM
    #2368
    Rockoma5

    Rockoma5 Well-Known Member

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    I like how people are so butthurt over how they want to customize their own vehicle. @‘19swdclboff-road I missed that sale. I want those also. I am still satisfied with what I have but it does seem like the Hikari is top dog.... for now.

    Got my dad a set for his Wrangler and man what a difference on his it made. Can actually see the road now too.
     
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  9. Jan 10, 2020 at 8:53 AM
    #2369
    CAG Gonzo

    CAG Gonzo Ascendant Spaghetti

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    I have my opinions about customization. They tend to shy away from dumb things. But more importantly, if I wanna be butt hurt, I'm gonna be butt hurt!
     
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  10. Jan 10, 2020 at 9:03 AM
    #2370
    ‘19swdclboff-road

    ‘19swdclboff-road Well-Known Member

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    At that price I had a hard time passing it up. I like the color better then the halogens but the actual impact on visibility is minimal. If I could get them for the same price again I would. Otherwise the GEs are excellent for me.
     
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  11. Jan 10, 2020 at 9:12 AM
    #2371
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    A good bulb cannot fix a bad headlight, which is a good reason to stay away from aftermarket housings.

    I have yet to see an on-board 3rd Gen solution for the AGM charge voltage. I think someone pinged OVTune about it, but I hadn't head any promising result.

    The Wrangler takes H4/9003s or H13s depending on the year, the dual filament Hikaris like the H4/H13 are not the same in performance as the H11 Hikaris in a projector. The H4 Hikaris produce excessive glare and output is poor compared to a halogen upgrade, I would not recommend the Hikari H4s.

    H4 Hikari left vs 100/90w Osram Superbright H4s.
    [​IMG]

    Osram Superbrights left vs Hikrai H4 right
    [​IMG]
     
  12. Jan 10, 2020 at 9:44 AM
    #2372
    BadDogMax

    BadDogMax Well-Known Member

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    I'm an engineer, have read the thread, and still went with LED's :)

    H9 = short life, higher heat, yellow light

    HID = need to piece together a solution to get all of the potential and reliability out of them which costs $120+, UV damage danger, bouncing filament possibility, still a bit yellow

    Hikari Ultra LED = drop in, long life, 50% brighter than stock but not too bright or blue, output looks like it could be OEM, $55 on sale, modern white color.

    The Hikaris have a fair amount of early failures in the reviews so there's that. And the pattern is not as ideal as a halogen/HID solution. But it is bright enough at a distance and even in the darker zones so in total it feels brighter than stock. Especially with the fogs on. Without the fogs, there is a big dark spot in front but the fogs fill that area nicely.

    And if I turn off engineer mode: subjectively, I am a bit annoyed that Toyota sold a $40k+ truck in 2019 with dim yellow headlights. Yes, they fixed this in 2020, but for those without 2020 LEDs, drop-in LED bulbs fix that.

    Is it the the very best and brightest solution? No, but from a technical standpoint it's good enough and is subjectively satisfying. YMMV!

    IMG_7453.jpg
     
  13. Jan 10, 2020 at 9:46 AM
    #2373
    pdxtaco02

    pdxtaco02 Well-Known Member

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    What kind of engineer are you?
     
  14. Jan 10, 2020 at 9:49 AM
    #2374
    BadDogMax

    BadDogMax Well-Known Member

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    Electronic systems. Not lighting - I should have made that clear! When it comes to lighting I'm just a consumer and my opinions are consumer opinions.
     
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  15. Jan 10, 2020 at 10:01 AM
    #2375
    pdxtaco02

    pdxtaco02 Well-Known Member

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    Its all good, you've got valid points. Not too many "lighting engineers" out there anyway haha

    My biggest issue with the LED bulbs are that they tend to lack direct efficient heat sinks.

    We all know that an LED's produce less overall heat than Halogens or HIDs, but the heat LEDs do produce is focused directly around the light emitting diode itself. This is the #1 enemy of LEDs. You can actually watch LEDs get dimmer as they heat up and lose efficiency and also over time.

    We also know a LED assemblies ability to pull heat away from the diodes determines the life, performance and efficiency of the LEDs. Typically LEDs have a longer life than Halogens, not if they cant dissipate heat efficiently.

    Whats your opinion on the fact that no aftermarket H9 LED bulbs have heat sinks directly on diodes or PCB?
     
  16. Jan 10, 2020 at 10:05 AM
    #2376
    pdxtaco02

    pdxtaco02 Well-Known Member

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    For example most good LED bars and pods have the following construction: Light emitting diodes on copper PCB with big ass heat sink directly on the back of the PCB.

    This means that the heat from the Diodes is soaking into the copper PCB (great heat conductor) then out the heat sink.

    LED bulbs have none of this...

    I know you've studied thermodynamics
     
  17. Jan 10, 2020 at 10:39 AM
    #2377
    BadDogMax

    BadDogMax Well-Known Member

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    You're going to force me into engineering mode, aren't you?

    Here you go:

    LED.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

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  18. Jan 10, 2020 at 11:26 AM
    #2378
    pdxtaco02

    pdxtaco02 Well-Known Member

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    Engineering mode always!!! haha I love it

    IMO:
    Those 3 LEDs in that picture are way too close together concentrating all that heat in one spot
    The heat sink is way too far away
    Plastic is not thermally conductive

    If you're going full engineer then I will too!

    Below is a simplfied version of an LED assembly I designed as a part of a larger project. We did quite a bit of testing on this because power, efficiency, lifespan and beam pattern were critical for this project. Nothing on the market met our requirements so we had to design and manufacture from the ground up.


    I had to remove quite a bit of proprietary design elements to be able to get this released, but the general design concept is consistent.

    Structure Example(1).jpg

    Let me know what you think. Lighting is fascinating
     
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  19. Jan 10, 2020 at 11:48 AM
    #2379
    Sasquatchian

    Sasquatchian Well-Known Member

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    Interesting your comment on the LED modules being too close for proper heat dissipation. And therein lies another issue when trying to use LED's where they don't belong. They pretty much have to be as small and as close together as possible to try and mimic the spec for the H11 halogen filament size and placement. And since that, so far, has proven pretty much impossible to do with LED's that have enough output, it always ends up being a compromised design that only sorta works. And by sorta I mean that it throws out light.
     
  20. Jan 10, 2020 at 12:02 PM
    #2380
    pdxtaco02

    pdxtaco02 Well-Known Member

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    Yes my point exactly.

    Its hard to retrofit a good LED design into a H9 or H11 bulb format.
     
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