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3rd Gen HID vs LED vs Halogen H11 projector headlights

Discussion in '3rd Gen. Tacomas (2016+)' started by crashnburn80, Jan 25, 2019.

  1. Jan 10, 2020 at 12:09 PM
    #2381
    pdxtaco02

    pdxtaco02 Well-Known Member

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    That's just my opinion though.

    There's a lot of guys who are running LED bulbs and seem to be happy with them.
     
    DWD484 likes this.
  2. Jan 10, 2020 at 12:18 PM
    #2382
    DWD484

    DWD484 Makes Sense

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    I think that I forget.
    Yeah, there are lots of people who do lots of things for lots of reasons, even tho an LED will never be better than a halogen in this configuration. But like you said, as long as they're happy.
     
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  3. Jan 10, 2020 at 12:21 PM
    #2383
    BadDogMax

    BadDogMax Well-Known Member

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    Very nice!


    At the risk of boring those who are here for the Tacoma content, here are some enginerd thoughts:

    The success of any high performance, value engineered design is always in the details. Overkill is an easier way to solve a problem, but won't sell on Amazon. How close to the limits can the engineer get and still be cost effective?

    Pretending to be that engineer, armed with little knowledge but lots of Google:

    <start pure speculation>

    - Hikari Ultra is using Lumileds, which is a reputable OEM mfg of lighting. Specs for the LUXEON F headlight LED I found online show Tcase is 130C, which I think means that the LED top surface can be up to 130C without failure. Even if the heat sink design is inefficient, as long as it is efficient enough to keep the top of the LED below 130C it's good enough.

    - The LUXEON F in the online spec has a dedicated thermal pad. So if the pad is bonded to the heat sink, it eliminates the thermally lossy PCB of an ordinary SMD LED.

    - The thermally conductive body of the Hikari appears to be anodized aluminum, not plastic. Aluminum is a good, inexpensive thermal conductor.

    - Active cooling using a fan makes the heat sink a lot more efficient than passive cooling.

    How close did the real engineers get to the limits? The bulbs have 11% 1 star reviews on Amazon. About half of those are from people dissatisfied with the light output (on lots of different vehicles - we know they work OK in Tacoma projectors thanks to Crashburn80). The other half of the reviews are from people who had the lights fail after a few months.

    Of those failures, you have to wonder about the percentage that are thermal failure vs other failures:

    - Some have failed because the installer left the driver box flapping in the breeze, hanging only by the cable, and the wires broke
    - Some have failed because the heat sink is trapped inside of a small enclosure created behind a rubber splash guard and it ends up simply recirculating the same hot air and overheating
    - Some have failed because there is no splash guard (like Tacoma) and dirt can get into the fan and stop it
    - Some have failed from poor installation of the LED onto the heat sink (poor factory QC)
    - Some have failed from poor thermal design. Perhaps the cooling system is not efficient enough when ambient temp is extra hot, or some LED's fail on on the low side of the max temp specification.

    Let's assume that 33% of the 1 star reviews are failures from poor thermal design. Not OEM quality for sure, but is a 97% success rate acceptable for an under $100 Amazon product? Just barely, but perhaps. The engineers of this product cut the design of these REALLY close to the acceptable limits!

    <end pure speculation>
     
    pdxtaco02 and TacoFergie like this.
  4. Jan 10, 2020 at 12:27 PM
    #2384
    TacoFergie

    TacoFergie Well-Known Member

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    The Fusion has the OEM headlights, Hella based projector. The H9 did improve it, but not enough for me. Had good throw but almost no width. That was what got me into retrofitting and automotive lighting in general. The EVOX-R projector is a great bolt in improvement but still lacks width compared to other projectors available.

    I hope that someone is able to crack the code for the charging system. That would be really good for the 3rd gen guys!
     
  5. Jan 10, 2020 at 3:27 PM
    #2385
    pdxtaco02

    pdxtaco02 Well-Known Member

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    Can't argue with any of that! Your speculation and logic is solid.

    I just think with all that considered it's not the best choice compared to the $20 tried and true halogens

    That being said, we're talking about headlight bulbs here...If you buy something and you're happy with it, then its all good.
     
    Tullie D and CaliTaco718 like this.
  6. Jan 10, 2020 at 7:27 PM
    #2386
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    Go Hawks!
    While not ideal for an LED, these are design constraints imposed by trying to retrofit an LED to mimic a halogen, as @Sasquatchian stated. If you spaced the LEDs further apart, they would not replicate a halogen and performance would be poor/awful, meaning they must be very close together. The heat sink really needs to be outside the optical assembly to not obstruct the optics and provide best cooling, meaning it is far away from the emitters. Fans do try to compensate the cooling efficiency, but have their own issues with noise and reliability in an off road pickup exposed to the elements. Starting from scratch and designing an LED headlight (or any light) around the LED is a vastly superior approach than trying to design an LED around a halogen optical lamp design and environment.
     
  7. Jan 11, 2020 at 4:37 AM
    #2387
    CB3TACO

    CB3TACO Well-Known Member

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    2nd Gen DCLB SOLD 3rd Gen SW DCLB OFFROAD
    Had my Hikaris for a while now in the fog and headlights and I love them. I can visually tell light concentration seems to be less but the color makes it seem better imo.
     
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  8. Jan 11, 2020 at 7:48 AM
    #2388
    Joe671

    Joe671 YouTube Mechanic

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    Like the 737 Max. Ohhhhhh i'm kidding i'm kidding.

    If they knock off another $20 though, i'm in.
     
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  9. Jan 11, 2020 at 7:49 AM
    #2389
    xxTacocaTxx

    xxTacocaTxx Well Unknown Member

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    RCI skid plates Mobtown sliders Lots of patches MESO Ultimate Turns, LED map and dome light, and Total Tail stage 2
    Please don't drive towards me, my old eyes can't take that glare.
     
  10. Jan 11, 2020 at 10:58 AM
    #2390
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    Replacement LEDs in the OEM halogen fog reflectors will cause some pretty awful glare to oncoming drivers. I'd instead recommend an actual SAE compliant and legal fog from this thread:
    https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/the-led-sae-j583-fog-pod-fog-light-review.554813/
     
  11. Jan 11, 2020 at 11:56 AM
    #2391
    Boghog1

    Boghog1 Jack of all trades, master of none.

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    or just use the fog lights when it is actually foggy
     
  12. Jan 11, 2020 at 1:12 PM
    #2392
    CB3TACO

    CB3TACO Well-Known Member

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  13. Jan 11, 2020 at 11:14 PM
    #2393
    150k

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    https://www.fakespot.com/product/hi...-lumileds-12000lm-6k-cool-white-2-yr-warranty

    • Our engine has detected that Amazon has altered, modified or removed reviews from this listing. We approximate total reviews altered up to 2011.
    • Our engine has analyzed and discovered that 68.3% of the reviews are reliable.

    Amazon eventually gets around to deleting "fake"/paid-for/shill reviews, hence the "2011" removed reviews.
     
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  14. Jan 11, 2020 at 11:28 PM
    #2394
    Panchovilla6192002

    Panchovilla6192002 Well-Known Member

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    Finally installed the Philips H9. I’m satisfied with the extra light without spending too much money. Thanks
     
  15. Jan 12, 2020 at 3:05 AM
    #2395
    Rainoffire

    Rainoffire Well-Known Member

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    I do not know if this has been mentioned or has happened to anyone before, so I just want to share my experience.

    I have been running Morimoto HIDs for the year or so, and have experienced the common HID shake that a lot of others have experienced on both driver and passenger side.

    I got used to it, so it never bothered me too much.

    However one day last month, I had this super crazy wobble on the driver side headlight.
    It was fine when driving on flat road, but would shake like crazy when I brake or hit a bump.
    It was a shake/wobble that threw the hotspot everywhere, and shake at stop.

    I turned off my headlights at a stop, then on green turned them backed on.
    The crazy shake/wobble was gone, but the next weird thing is that my driver side light does not shake at all anymore.
    Speed bumps, uneven road, dirt road, etc. it does not shake, only the passenger side.

    It has been about a month already, and it is just perfect. Other than the passenger side...

    I do not want to take out HID to check what has occured, as I do not want to mess up what may be an accidental perfect state.

    Can anyone else chime in on this? What may have cause the crazy shake, why turning on&off fixed it, and why their is no shake at all anymore.
     
  16. Jan 12, 2020 at 7:20 AM
    #2396
    CaliTaco718

    CaliTaco718 Instagram: socalmike9000

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    I’m gonna stay halogen on fogs, maybe go for a cheap yellow halogen and somewhere down the line upgrade to a good aftermarket that works well. LED in fogs defeats the entire purpose of fog lights from what I understand.
     
  17. Jan 12, 2020 at 8:27 AM
    #2397
    BadDogMax

    BadDogMax Well-Known Member

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    Sheesh. Everything is fake these days!
     
  18. Jan 12, 2020 at 8:30 AM
    #2398
    Tullie D

    Tullie D Well-Known Member

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    It all started with fake butter. :(
     
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  19. Jan 12, 2020 at 3:36 PM
    #2399
    Cwopinger

    Cwopinger Well-Known Member

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    @crashnburn80 first off let me thank you once again for the work you have put into this thread. My 54 year old eyes are enjoying the extra light the H9 low beam mod puts out.

    I’m following several of your light threads and know I read in one of them about street legal driving beams, Hella 500/700 I believe. I like the idea of the driving lights to assist with the height beams on dark secondary roads and trails when arriving in camp after dark. The lamps will be mounted behind the grill on my 3rd gen as I don’t have a bull bar to mount them in front of the grill. Do you think this would cause shadows and a significant loss of light from the grill pattern? If so, any suggestions on how to mount them to the factory front bumper? Thanks in advance!
     
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  20. Jan 12, 2020 at 3:38 PM
    #2400
    150k

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    I like the below bar better than the Hella 500s/700s.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HvJwmXv54M

    Weighs a little over a pound, 14 inches long, very easy to mount anywhere. I mounted it with sheet metal screws into a plastic bumper cover, drove 10,000 miles, didn't even loosen one bit.

    This is the Hella 350, and it has a peak intensity of about 60,000 candela in the driving beam version. It is about the same as having a third stock high-beam lamp. There is a longer one with more output called the Hella 470.
     
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