1. Welcome to Tacoma World!

    You are currently viewing as a guest! To get full-access, you need to register for a FREE account.

    As a registered member, you’ll be able to:
    • Participate in all Tacoma discussion topics
    • Communicate privately with other Tacoma owners from around the world
    • Post your own photos in our Members Gallery
    • Access all special features of the site

3rd Gen HID vs LED vs Halogen H11 projector headlights

Discussion in '3rd Gen. Tacomas (2016+)' started by crashnburn80, Jan 25, 2019.

  1. Feb 19, 2021 at 8:54 PM
    #4421
    Toy_Runner

    Toy_Runner Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2019
    Member:
    #311172
    Messages:
    133
    Gender:
    Male
    Vehicle:
    99 4Runner SR5
    3" OME lift, heavy coils f/r 3/16" steel skids Modified Coastal Offroad diy bumper 5spd swap ('98 donor)
    He's stating (correctly) that not all light has the same "quality" or effectiveness. While intensity is probably the most significant thing needed for sight/perception, the spectrum of light is clearly important.

    The human eye has three sets of receptors, for blue wavelengths, green and red wavelengths. The blue receptors are hypersensitive, and can negatively effect (downregulate) the red and green receptors, causing even high intensity light to be "less useful" for effective sight. That's some of the basis for selective yellow lighting research and regulation in France-the French wanted to be able to easily identify French registered vehicles, but did not want to negatively effect safety for the driver of the vehicle or other traffic/pedestrians. They found that removing a significant portion if the Blue-Indigi-Violet wavelengths of light from an incandescent lightsource resulted in an insignificant decrease in intensity, cutting only about 15% of the total light output. However removing those wavelengths left the red and green spectrum, resulting in yellow light. Yellow still allows you to distinguish between natural colors, greys, blacks, browns, greens, reds, etc because there is very little bright blue in nature. Without the B-I-V wavelengths, the red and green receptors dont get diwnregulated, allowing you to see more effectively without causing eye strain.

    Which is funny, because the blue-heavy spectrums of HID and LED headlights is touted as being safer and causing less eye strain, specifically because it Is so stimulating. The down regulation of other receptors doesn't seem to get talked about these days.

    Subjectively, based on my past several years of trying many different yellow and selective yellow bulbs, slip on selective yellow filters and lens tint between strings of tickets for illegal headlight color, I greatly prefer selective yellow for headlight color than even incandescent white. There's really only so much you can do in extremely heavy fog, and the key with fog seems to be more about control of any up-light than particular spectrum (although yellow does help). But in heavy rain/sleet and even snow selective yellow SHINES (pardon the pun) and drastically beats the competition. I keep contacting my legislators to allow yellow as a headlight color, but no luck as of yet. The French didn't get much right (I kid, I kid) but they got selective yellow headlights for a long time.
     
  2. Feb 20, 2021 at 6:31 AM
    #4422
    daveeasa

    daveeasa Slowest crimp in the West

    Joined:
    May 14, 2020
    Member:
    #328079
    Messages:
    1,281
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    David
    San Diego
    Vehicle:
    2016 OR 4x4 DCSB MGM 6MT
    Great post @Toy_Runner

    I definitely see and appreciate the value of selective yellow for inclement weather.

    For low beams in clear weather, I honestly find myself preferring my truck (OEM LED now) to the minivan (H9 in Honda projector.). And even preferring having the MAX fog lights on when driving slowly in the van for their color contribution despite the fact that fog lights in clear weather aren’t appropriate.

    Does anyone have any scientific data about this eye strain from blue light while driving? I’ve asked about it before and only came up with one study which was ten years old and pre dates a lot of the recent LED headlights.

    I would personally describe H9 light color as dirty and almost dull vs the sharper contrast of 6000k on a dark asphalt road in clear weather in the absence of ambient light. I greatly prefer the higher reflectivity as well, driving safely at night for me involves being keenly aware of road markers, stripes and signs.

    I may well be fooling myself though? It wouldn’t be the first time.
     
    xxTacocaTxx, 907rx7 and PapaRee like this.
  3. Feb 20, 2021 at 11:33 AM
    #4423
    CraigF

    CraigF Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2020
    Member:
    #332105
    Messages:
    325
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Craig
    Oak Grove, OR
    Vehicle:
    06 AC PR OR 4.0L
    none yet
    I hate anything 5000k and up coming at me from the other direction. I feel blinded afterwards.
    But I am a light sensitive idiot
     
    whiseve likes this.
  4. Feb 20, 2021 at 12:38 PM
    #4424
    backcountryj

    backcountryj Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2010
    Member:
    #41950
    Messages:
    5,005
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Jonathan
    GA
    Vehicle:
    2017 QS DCSB TRD OR 4wd
    Wear a pair of yellow lensed sunglasses in rain/snow/foggy conditions (in the daytime of course). You’ll get a similar improvement in visibility without the tickets.
     
    xxTacocaTxx likes this.
  5. Feb 20, 2021 at 1:24 PM
    #4425
    Toy_Runner

    Toy_Runner Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2019
    Member:
    #311172
    Messages:
    133
    Gender:
    Male
    Vehicle:
    99 4Runner SR5
    3" OME lift, heavy coils f/r 3/16" steel skids Modified Coastal Offroad diy bumper 5spd swap ('98 donor)
    Nah, filtering the lightsource is the patricians choice.
     
  6. Feb 20, 2021 at 6:45 PM
    #4426
    whiseve

    whiseve Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2020
    Member:
    #348345
    Messages:
    8
    Gender:
    Male
    That's because blue light triggers greater pupil constriction than longer wavelengths, and for a longer duration after the stimulus is removed. Of course, the owner of those lights has little issue because the vast majority of objects on the road are reflecting very little of it back or are reflecting diffusely. But anyone on the receiving end of the focused beam experiences severe glare and loses vision more severely than with longer wavelengths.

    The pupil constriction stimulated by blue light is why 5000k+ color temps are useful for task lighting, improving optical clarity similar to a pinhole camera. But overall luminance levels are orders of magnitude higher in task lighting, and the lighting level is steady. In nighttime driving, the overall luminance level is quite low in the environment, so even a momentary exposure to a focused beam of high-energy blue-rich LED or HID light can cause a severe loss of dark vision for other drivers.

    Human vision cannot focus on blue as well, either. Ever tried to read blue text on black from a distance, or even on a computer monitor? It's nowhere near as easy as red or green. When you get your eyes checked, the optometrist calibrates the prescription between red and green, which refract a bit differently through the eye, but blue is not included.

    I have encountered vehicles with factory LED lights a few times on a particular narrow winding road where the beam pointed straight into my eyes, necessitating a stop due to momentary blindness. I haven't had nearly the issue with halogens. The intensity is part of it, but it's also the high-energy spectral content.

    I mean, if blue light is so good for night driving, why not 8000k or 12000k?

    Selective yellow works very well for a reason. You don't need copious amounts of high-energy deep-blue light to see well on the road. The blue emission spike in the 450nm range is characteristic of current mass-produced white LEDs that use a blue chip coated in yellow phosphor, and less phosphor equals more blue, higher lumens per watt (but not necessarily better vision), and lower cost. A little more phosphor would go a long way toward improving ergonomics. (There are LEDs that emit a more even visible spectrum via fluorescence from UV for improved color rendering, but they have lower quantum efficiency.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2021 at 7:11 PM
    xxTacocaTxx, Toy_Runner and 907rx7 like this.
  7. Feb 20, 2021 at 11:15 PM
    #4427
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2015
    Member:
    #156893
    Messages:
    11,038
    Gender:
    Male
    Kirkland, WA
    Vehicle:
    2015 DCSB TRD OR MGM
    Go Hawks!
    Nope, never participated in MB boards. BMW, VW, Jeep, Toyota, but never MB.

    Glare is now included in factoring headlight safety ratings. But what isn't yet included is color temp. Glare from a 6000k+ LED light source is significantly more harmful than glare from a 3000k halogen light source, yet the safety ratings do not currently make this distinction. I'd like to see the ratings to reflect the actual affect on oncoming drivers rather than just an abstract lux value independent of color temperature.
     
    xxTacocaTxx, 907rx7, whiseve and 3 others like this.
  8. Feb 21, 2021 at 7:01 PM
    #4428
    bacon_st

    bacon_st Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2016
    Member:
    #189261
    Messages:
    1,123
    First Name:
    Alex
    San Diego
    Vehicle:
    16' Taco TRD sport
    Finally my head light mod is complete. Thanks to Leo again. @Customretrofitheadlights. This is my second retrofit he has done on the same lights.
    Thanks to @Kairide and @TacoFergie for helping me put together my list and give me confidence to go with the build.

    Leo did a dual projector retrofit. RX350s for Low/High and also separate HighBeam projectors and custom Graphite shrouds.
    Changed Fog lamps to DD SS3 Sport Driving White

    1. Bi-Xenon: Lexus RX350 STi Lens
    Lexus RX350 Bi-Xenon Projectors: 2 X Bi-Xenon: Lexus RX350 (Non-AFS) (LHD) $290.00
    Clear Lens Upgrade: 2 X Lens: STi-R
    2. D2S: Osram Xenarc Cool Blue Intense
    3. Diode Dynamics White (Driving) Sport lights as fogs. $220
    4. High Beam: Morimoto Mini HB LED Projectors
    5. Mini Graphite Shrouds: 2 × Mini Graphite (Black Series) Shrouds
    6. Meso dual switch back side markers
    7. Custom smoked LED acrylic lens
    8. Diode Dynamics Switchback LED DRLs with Turn light functionality. (replace Meso DRL)
    9. KC Lites, Cyclone LED - 2-Light Universal Under Hood Lighting System - 5W Flood Beam (for under the hood)


    My pictures don't do justice because of the glare, but I will get better pictures later and post them.

     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2021 at 9:36 PM
  9. Feb 21, 2021 at 7:09 PM
    #4429
    ryanvar42

    ryanvar42 That is your opinion. It is wrong.

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2021
    Member:
    #355569
    Messages:
    306
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Ryan
    Vehicle:
    2021 TRD Sport
    None
    I don’t know what any of that means but it sounds like a lot of work. Was it worth it?
     
    bacon_st likes this.
  10. Feb 21, 2021 at 7:46 PM
    #4430
    Kairide

    Kairide Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2020
    Member:
    #328694
    Messages:
    886
    Gender:
    Male
    Vehicle:
    2020 White SR5
    Looks good, glad it all turned out well :thumbsup:
     
    bacon_st likes this.
  11. Feb 21, 2021 at 8:48 PM
    #4431
    bacon_st

    bacon_st Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2016
    Member:
    #189261
    Messages:
    1,123
    First Name:
    Alex
    San Diego
    Vehicle:
    16' Taco TRD sport
    Totally, I was on stock headlights until now. I’d you read back my comments in this thread you will get the full picture.
     
  12. Feb 21, 2021 at 11:29 PM
    #4432
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2015
    Member:
    #156893
    Messages:
    11,038
    Gender:
    Male
    Kirkland, WA
    Vehicle:
    2015 DCSB TRD OR MGM
    Go Hawks!
    Lots of work in that setup. Why go with the Cool Blue Intense HIDs? And why the Driving lights for fogs with so much high beam power already?
     
  13. Feb 22, 2021 at 12:06 AM
    #4433
    bacon_st

    bacon_st Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2016
    Member:
    #189261
    Messages:
    1,123
    First Name:
    Alex
    San Diego
    Vehicle:
    16' Taco TRD sport
    A ton of work indeed. Very expensive too, especially when new OEM and Pro's and other aftermarket solutions available these days.
    Before I did anything, I came here and asked for advice from others and everyone suggested RX350s. While my retrofitter himself has Morimoto projectors, which has a much more sharper cut off angle, and sharp lines, I got my RX350 projectors tuned. and wanted to stick with the standard and legend. I got the STi Clear lens Non AFS RX350 projectors
    Why CBI? I felt CBI has a good lumen rating that was a good balance. It's not too blue and not too bright and warm like the Xenarc NightBreaker Laser which is a very warm-ish/bright. CBA or Cool blue advanced has a Kelvin rating of 6000K and very bluish white.. Where as CBI has Kelvin rating of 4200K, and a bright white with a small bluish/purplish tinge that is easy on the eye. Neither too warm nor too blue.
    Warm light from Nightbreaker while very bright indeed, but can be fatiguing. So I had to settle for a color temperature that is easy on my eyes.
    Why are my Fogs are driving lights/high beam SS3s, because I wanted a nice throw of white light from closer to the ground down range. High beams from headlights/projectors (you know, I have dual high beam projectors), tend to create an intense hot spot down range and diffuse light everywhere, where as the SS3's light up the entire ground from source all the way to the bottom of the hotspot created by the high beam projectors above.
    When in High beam mode, the fog lamps cut off anyway. When in low beam, my SS3 driving lights light up downrange neatly and sharply complementing my low beams without blinding anybody.
    Why too much high beam power (dual high beams). I like long road trips, and was recently on a road trip to New Mexico. Sometimes for hours and hours on end, I was the only vehicle on the road. Cutting through the night and getting good light output was an important safety matter I learned.
    Finally, Why no fogs? I want to add an all amber light bar eventually, and I didn't want to put amber fogs at my fog lamp locations. My Amber light bar which is coming will act as my fog lamps instead.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2021 at 8:33 AM
    foobs likes this.
  14. Feb 22, 2021 at 9:49 AM
    #4434
    TacoFergie

    TacoFergie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2015
    Member:
    #172832
    Messages:
    673
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Chris
    Iowa
    Hell ya!! Looks great!! Luckily if you do ever change your mind on any of the components, you can easily swap the bulb or lens on the driving lights. This is a great setup because it's reliable, amazing output and completely serviceable! Good job man!!
     
    bacon_st likes this.
  15. Feb 23, 2021 at 7:04 PM
    #4435
    Toy_Runner

    Toy_Runner Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2019
    Member:
    #311172
    Messages:
    133
    Gender:
    Male
    Vehicle:
    99 4Runner SR5
    3" OME lift, heavy coils f/r 3/16" steel skids Modified Coastal Offroad diy bumper 5spd swap ('98 donor)
    No offense, but your choices here seem a bit... off.

    >RX350 projectors w/tuned lenses
    Seems like a great option for a D2S bi-xenon setup.

    >Morimoto LED highbeam
    Doesn't seem like it's going to add much to your highbeam. What #'s I've seen attributed to this high beam unit across HIDPlanet/youtube testing seems like it has a fairly limited pattern and fairly low peak intensity level, meaning not much reach. I can't imagine it's very noticeable compared to the highbeam from your rx350's on high beam.

    >preferring higher color temp
    Again, there's a very good body of testing that shows that lightsources that are heavy on the blue spectrum (which would include a 4300k HID) cause eye strain and the blue spike of their spectrum down regulates the red and green rods and cones in your eye, reducing perception and increasing reaction time. I hear what you're saying based on your experiences with other lamps/burners, but it seems fairly backwards.

    Intensity is the most important thing for sight, so obviously a high performance light is going to be more useful to see with than a low performance light, but all else being close (close because we don't perceive light linearly) color spectrum can come into play as well. My personal, subjective experience makes me really appreciate selective yellow as a superior choice for night driving, be it urban or rural, preferable over clear/white halogen, as long as the lightsource doesn't experience a significant drop in output due to filtering. HID is, by nature, going to have a pretty choppy spectrum, and Crash's testing shows this in this thread pretty clearly with the XD and rebased Phillips burners. HID isn't as bad as LED's blue spike, but the effect is still the same.

    >Why are my Fogs are driving lights/high beam SS3s, because I wanted a nice throw of white light from closer to the ground down range. High beams from headlights/projectors (you know, I have dual high beam projectors), tend to create an intense hot spot down range and diffuse light everywhere, where as the SS3's light up the entire ground from source all the way to the bottom of the hotspot created by the high beam projectors above.

    Seems like you're saying you're running these with your low beams?

    >When in High beam mode, the fog lamps cut off anyway. When in low beam, my SS3 driving lights light up downrange neatly and sharply complementing my low beams without blinding anybody.

    Yeah, I would be concerned that unless you're quite diligent about not using your driving-"fogs" with any traffic, that you're causing glare for oncoming traffic even if it may not appear that way. Glare isn't just up-light above whatever horizontal cutoff a lamp has, too intense a light reflected off the street can cause glare for traffic as well.

    I really think you would be better served with the fog light optics in these lamps. They're the pro's, so they're going to have a wider/taller beam with a softer cutoff than either the SPort/Max pods, and they'll still fulfill your goal of extra foreground light/wider reach without reaching the peak intensity levels that will cause excessive glare for oncoming traffic or diminishing your ability to see objects at a distance. This is the balancing act that must be built into low beams - sufficient flux throughout the beam for low speed driving in tight spaces, balanced with limiting this foreground light so that your pupils arent overly constricted and reducing the ability to see objects at a distance as speed. Additionally, you're saying the cutoff of your driving lights reaches up to this high beam hot spot, they're aimed too low to add to your distance vision for the highbeam (not that they're on) and they're adding significant amounts of light to the light in the foreground when your low beams are activated.

    >amber lightbar for fogs instead

    Fogs are really intended for low speed (<20mph) driving in poor conditions. A bright lightbar with the fog pattern may not be the best option for that use. In extreme fog, too much light is just as bad as not enough, even in monochromatic amber or selective yellow with a good cutoff. Again, just putting the fog optics in your SS3's, or getting another set of selective yellow SS3's will likely be more useful, especially if used correctly with your low beams.

    You sunk a lot of money into this set up, but the bulb selection and driving light use really is working against you.
     
  16. Feb 23, 2021 at 7:20 PM
    #4436
    sicmadek

    sicmadek Member

    Joined:
    Tuesday
    Member:
    #357208
    Messages:
    6
    Gender:
    Male
    I joined this forum solely because of this discussion. I drive a 2020 charger scatpack with halogen projectors. Since i bought it i have been on a mission to find an acceptable light bulb to live with. The car came with a 9005sl+ which was a disappointment. I have tried many led’s from Amazon. All had different pros and cons. I am now on the fence about getting some 9011’s. It was explained in this thread about clocking the led chips at 9 & 3 oclock but no other specifics. I know that for the hikari ultras the thinnest part by the chips is supposed the point up. Did you do that crashnburn80?

    btw i am addicted to all of this info thanks to your work.
     
    Loan Wolve likes this.
  17. Feb 23, 2021 at 7:34 PM
    #4437
    ryanvar42

    ryanvar42 That is your opinion. It is wrong.

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2021
    Member:
    #355569
    Messages:
    306
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Ryan
    Vehicle:
    2021 TRD Sport
    None
    Yes, that is how they are supposed to be. I’m pretty sure he didn’t cut corners
     
  18. Feb 23, 2021 at 7:36 PM
    #4438
    sicmadek

    sicmadek Member

    Joined:
    Tuesday
    Member:
    #357208
    Messages:
    6
    Gender:
    Male
    well i didnt know anyone else who bought them knew that. I never seen it brought up.
     
  19. Feb 23, 2021 at 7:55 PM
    #4439
    ryanvar42

    ryanvar42 That is your opinion. It is wrong.

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2021
    Member:
    #355569
    Messages:
    306
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Ryan
    Vehicle:
    2021 TRD Sport
    None
    Because most people are bros and just want to stick lights in thinking it’s better
     
  20. Feb 23, 2021 at 8:00 PM
    #4440
    sicmadek

    sicmadek Member

    Joined:
    Tuesday
    Member:
    #357208
    Messages:
    6
    Gender:
    Male
    i dont think youre picking up on what im saying
     

Products Discussed in

To Top