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3rd Gen HID vs LED vs Halogen H11 projector headlights

Discussion in '3rd Gen. Tacomas (2016+)' started by crashnburn80, Jan 25, 2019.

  1. Apr 21, 2021 at 10:42 AM
    #4721
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    You're just up the street, you can come by and check it out first hand. But an H9 is 2100 lumens at 12.8v, and running voltage is about 13.8v which will significantly boost output over the 12.8v rating, so the H9 will be far higher in lumen output than the 1350 lumen rating of the Philips LEDs. Paired with the H9 almost certainly having a smaller light source, providing better focus which increases output intensity, the Philips will be no contest to the H9 swap.
     
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  2. Apr 21, 2021 at 10:46 AM
    #4722
    a2lowvw

    a2lowvw Well-Known Member

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    I have H9's in the truck now and am quite happy with it, been considering the OEM Led lights but haven't pulled the trigger. It took me a while before I realized you were so close. I work down in Redmond but I figured I'd wait till we both have our Magnuson's installed before I tried to introduce myself
     
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  3. Apr 21, 2021 at 2:22 PM
    #4723
    Toy_Runner

    Toy_Runner Well-Known Member

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    Weird that the higher output version is actually more efficient in terms of lumens/watt consumed. And looks like the HL version is definitely intended to fall within the H11 +/-10% standard. If the cross section width is close to a filament, I could see it working fairly well in some applications.
     
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  4. Apr 23, 2021 at 11:06 AM
    #4724
    codenomics

    codenomics Vashta Nerada

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    This is way too in-depth for my brain when it comes to lighting... I am impressed... But so, so confuze

    I have a cheapo set of LEDs that I threw in for giggles and they are running like champs lol
     
  5. Apr 23, 2021 at 10:15 PM
    #4725
    RoostrC0gburn

    RoostrC0gburn Well-Known Member

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    :facepalm:
     
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  6. Apr 23, 2021 at 10:37 PM
    #4726
    CraigF

    CraigF Well-Known Member

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  7. Apr 23, 2021 at 11:03 PM
    #4727
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    Running like champs != working like headlights.

    See LED recommendations from post #3. If you want replacement LEDs the only two that are recommended are the Hikari Ultras and Morimoto 2stroke 3.0s. Nearly everything else is worse than stock, with more misleading foreground light. I guarantee you your cheapo LEDs fall into the later category.
     
  8. Apr 24, 2021 at 11:58 AM
    #4728
    Made671

    Made671 Member

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    Wow thanks for knowledge
     
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  9. Apr 24, 2021 at 4:15 PM
    #4729
    replica9000

    replica9000 Just your average meatbag.

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    Weird, my 4Runner won't let my use my high beams unless the low beams are on :notsure:
     
  10. Apr 24, 2021 at 10:49 PM
    #4730
    viruszzz94

    viruszzz94 Member

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    I'm glad you are testing these new philips leds but you made some mistakes. The philips leds have fans, so active cooling. And the legal status in Germany was obtained by osram (osram night breaker led) for a couple of cars, not by philips.
    The ultinon pro series looks promising based on their width, focusing more on efficient light delivery than on more lumens without proper control. In reality, bulb facts managed to test them and in a h7 halogen projector they were quite weak. In a reflector headlight they managed to do a better job. https://www.bulbfacts.com/led-kits/reviews/philips-ultinon-pro9000-pro5000-led-review.html
    Also, what do you think about the new DDM Tuning SaberLED ProX 55W Accu/V2 ? https://www.bulbfacts.com/led-kits/reviews/ddm-tuning-saberled-prox-55w-accu-v2-led-review.html There is a mistake in the review because the photos are from the philips ultinon but on the bulb chart you can find the correct one.
     
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  11. Apr 24, 2021 at 11:22 PM
    #4731
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    Is there a fan in there? That certainly looks like the same passive cooling style design they have used in their previous LED headlight products. But after some googling, yes I stand corrected they are actively cooled.

    upload_2021-4-24_22-59-1.jpg

    Facepalm. Right it was Osram that got the legal certification, not Philips.

    Note that BulbFacts does testing at 12', which can lead to highly inaccurate results for LEDs as the distance is inadequate to integrate the LED output evenly in the beam pattern. Even my indoor testing at 18' is inadequate for LEDs as I have shown the results to be very inaccurate at that distance, and typically giving a big boost to LED output readings that are not there are greater distances where the light output is able to be more uniform. Which is why I test them at 42' even though it is a PITA. I don't expect the Philips output to match Morimoto 2stroke 3.0 or Hikari Ultra, both those lights put out far greater output, whereas the Philips is designed around trying to be a compliant product. Projectors are both problematic and helpful for replacement LEDs. They are problematic because they are more sensitive to the size and design differences of a bi-directional LED light source compared to a halogen vs a larger reflector, leading to reduced performance. But on the other hand they do a far better job integrating the bi-directional light source into a more even pattern distribution than a reflector and provide the cut offs to eliminate glare.

    As for the SaberLEDs, those appear quite powerful. However the emitters look far too large which will mean poor focus, which is something a 12' test would conceal and return artificially inflated results for. Would be interesting to know what the cross section between emitter faces is, but it doesn't look like a product that is accurately designed to replicate a halogen.
     
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  12. Apr 26, 2021 at 7:30 AM
    #4732
    codenomics

    codenomics Vashta Nerada

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    Curious about this... They light up the road in front of me brighter than my stock headlights did. Is there a simpleton way of explaining why this is worse than stock?

    ::Edit:: That wasn't sarcasm, I honestly don't understand what that means.
     
  13. Apr 26, 2021 at 7:48 AM
    #4733
    Toy_Runner

    Toy_Runner Well-Known Member

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    Very basically, while more light near the vehicle is comforting, and undoubtedly useful in low speed situations, LED retrofit bulbs that Crashnburn80 has tested have generally (with a few exceptions) simultaneously put more light near the vehicle and less light further down the road.

    This is the opposite of how high performance H11 bulbs perform - they produce roughoy the same amount of total light (lumens) but are better focused (more tightly wound and precisely placed filament) and a higher intensity lightsource. These improvements result in similar amounts of light throughout the majority of the beam pattern (or small improvements in intensity that fall below the roughly 40% increase needed for the human eye to see a difference), but a large intensity increase in the hotspot - resulting in more light further down the road, which improves distance vision.

    Extra light near the vehicle is fine, if there is also a similar increase in intensity projected down the road.

    Extra light near the vehicle with the same/similar amount projected forward is a net *Negative* because the extra light in the foreground is going to constrict your pupils at night, reducing your ability to see the same amount of light that would be bouncing back to you from 300' down the roadway. [This is why driving in clear weather with your fog lights on is not generally advised. While the extra illuminated width may be comforting, you're still reducing your distance vision, decreasing your reaction time to avoid road debris/deer/whatever.]

    And if you have a situation where you have a significant increase in foreground light, and a *Decrease* in the intensity of light projected forward, you have significantly reduced your distance vision, while also feeling more "comfortable" about driving quickly because the road near the vehicle is well lit.

    This last situation is where most LED retrofit bulbs fall into - they put much more light in the wrong place. People base their perception of performance off of what they can see near the vehicle, which is why lots of poorly made bulbs will still get lots of rave reviews. Crash's testing has shown again and again and again that LED retrofit bulbs have significant focus issues and have very generally failed to be suitable replacements for even a standard bulb, let alone a high performance H11 (in the context of this thread) and way behind a significantly higher performing halogen bulb (H9).
     
  14. Apr 26, 2021 at 8:08 AM
    #4734
    codenomics

    codenomics Vashta Nerada

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    That makes sense actually... But, this applies to projectors as well? I thought that these just took the light that was being produced and focused them out to where it needed to be.
    Again... I thought a bulb was a bulb and bright was bright.
     
  15. Apr 26, 2021 at 9:31 AM
    #4735
    a2lowvw

    a2lowvw Well-Known Member

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    Yes and no. A projector is built to focus the light based upon where the light source originates from, if you change the location of the light source the projector is no longer functioning as designed. If you look back to the first page there are pictures of @crashnburn80 where he actually is measuring the filament diameter. If you look at most of the Led lights they have quite a bit different shape and dimensions to the filament found in a H9 or H11.
     
  16. Apr 26, 2021 at 9:42 AM
    #4736
    907rx7

    907rx7 Well-Known Member

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    The projectors can help eliminate glare to incoming traffic but projectors are engineered for a specific blub specification. Changing from a halogen to led bulb changes the position of the light source in turn changing the intended light pattern that is output by the projector.

    Something that helps me understand the foreground piece is how the human eye perceives an image. Our brains make a lot of educated guesses on what we see outside our focus, this is why 99% of the time you forget you're looking at your nose all day, your brain edits it out. The center of our focus is the highest resolution and clearest image. The image quality drops off significantly as you move away towards your peripheral vision. Increased brightness in the peripheral vision will make it harder to focus where you're supposed to be looking down road. Or cause you to drive short sighted looking down in front of your vehicle.

    I image changing your headlights to excessive fore ground lighting in the middle of a nightime drive would be like your nose changing to safety vest green. It would be really difficult to focus.

    how-big-resolution.jpg how-last-fovea.jpg
     
  17. Apr 26, 2021 at 9:56 AM
    #4737
    codenomics

    codenomics Vashta Nerada

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    I was looking at that but my braing was already melting by that point. Wasn't sure what any of that meant.
     
  18. Apr 26, 2021 at 10:00 AM
    #4738
    codenomics

    codenomics Vashta Nerada

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    See, I hadn't realized that the position of the light source inside the projector actually mattered. If I was just throwing these into an old school headlight with just a reflector then yeah that would have made more sense, but I thought that the projector did something more I guess. As you can tell... Lighting isn't my thing :D

    But when it comes down to brass tacks though... If I see further and clearer, isn't that better?
     
  19. Apr 26, 2021 at 10:00 AM
    #4739
    daveeasa

    daveeasa Slowest crimp in the West

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    If you can’t get a warm feeling about the details then just stick with the recommendations. Avoid LED’s in a halogen projector. If you must use an LED because you simply must have 6000k then go Hikari (80?) or Morimoto ($180). Best value and max performance is $6 Philips H9 halogen (requires harness or minor bulb mod).
     
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  20. Apr 26, 2021 at 10:13 AM
    #4740
    Steve Armstrong

    Steve Armstrong Well-Known Member

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