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3rd Gen HID vs LED vs Halogen H11 projector headlights

Discussion in '3rd Gen. Tacomas (2016+)' started by crashnburn80, Jan 25, 2019.

  1. Apr 30, 2021 at 5:06 PM
    #4781
    daveeasa

    daveeasa Slowest crimp in the West

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    Or if you prefer the EP:

    Tools:
    1. Small screwdriver, ideally made in the USA
    2. Beer, preferably green
    Steps:
    1. Identify H11 low beam connector. Hint, it is green and not yellow / beige
    2. Using small screwdriver, gently wiggle until the green plastic pice pops out. Cup your hand around the back of the connector while doing this so the cap does not launch into a dark corner of the engine bay.
    3. Locate green plastic piece and save for later
    4. Install unmodified H9 bulb (trim metal tabs prior to installing if you feel you need to or refer to @crashnburn80 ’s video of how to install an H9 bulb inside an H11 housing without metal tab trim using magician hand trick skills.
    5. Open beer and toast @Puppypunter.
    6. If for some reason you crush 12 green beers and pop all of the beige and green plastic pieces off in a rare moment of total euphoria and then realize you don’t know which is which, refer to the color codes below:
      1. Driver High Beam + is solid white
      2. Driver Low Beam + is solid red
      3. Passenger High Beam + is solid yellow
      4. Passenger Low Beam + is solid blue
      5. All grounds are black with white stripe
    Photos
    NOTE: You only need to remove the green plastic in the center of your H11 low beam connectors. Various photos of the yellow/beige H9 connector are purely informational so you can see the differences and observe the orientation of how this center piece is removed. You can leave your H9 high beam connectors/bulbs alone, the stock specs Phillips H9 for high beam which is already the best possible bulb. One very nice result of doing this mod is you only need to carry one type of bulb as a spare and you can even rotate high beam bulbs into low beam spots since the high beams should see significantly lower runtime.
    B267AE09-D5FA-4214-9DA4-6C35748889E8.jpg
    B67DF8BA-7983-4F59-8C09-DF4A0E168BB0.jpg
    34634284-5003-49A2-949F-7313E11E7AAC.jpg
    CF3D98FE-06F5-41E7-B1A6-5354CCEEC81A.jpg
    FB8D5B92-9FF1-4340-87B2-7F285FB7F658.jpg
    1072B533-1627-4120-89C1-FEA76331E179.jpg
    6E0CF24E-1173-45C4-A465-12E412C02142.jpg
    FEFA7E13-9BD9-426C-AA6C-E4AE08774FD3.jpg
    7584A9BA-490E-4CB2-8C19-D89593E4245A.jpg
    B3623054-3868-46E3-B5F3-91CB4B68E8BB.jpg
    https://youtu.be/FXL8LahHiuI
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2021
  2. Apr 30, 2021 at 5:38 PM
    #4782
    907rx7

    907rx7 Well-Known Member

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    Looks like that cap is something that could be 3d printed, do you know how hot that could get? I'd want to print in ABS but if PETG is okay it opens up to a lot more people.

    EDIT: To clarify, I realize the cap serves relatively little purpose. I'm guessing it's only there to prevent people from putting different bulbs in. More pondering the feasibility of 3d printing electrical connectors.
     
  3. Apr 30, 2021 at 5:41 PM
    #4783
    daveeasa

    daveeasa Slowest crimp in the West

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    Give me a few weeks to source some. Should have a quote soon. Not much point in printing it. Quality is a non issue. The piece doesn’t play any role other than preventing that which we desire.
     
    crashnburn80 [OP] and 907rx7 like this.
  4. Apr 30, 2021 at 6:23 PM
    #4784
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    Go Hawks!
    Great post, though unsure on “green beer.” I’ll link it in the halogen post section.
     
    907rx7 and tclavell like this.
  5. Apr 30, 2021 at 6:29 PM
    #4785
    Puppypunter

    Puppypunter Well-Known Member

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    This is why Dave is the best for customer service :thumbsup:
     
    tclavell likes this.
  6. Apr 30, 2021 at 6:40 PM
    #4786
    daveeasa

    daveeasa Slowest crimp in the West

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    Don’t be hatin’ on the hometown brew!

    609DE5EB-311F-4B86-B7B1-7FF5BD580B6A.jpg
     
    907rx7 and crashnburn80 [OP] like this.
  7. Apr 30, 2021 at 6:47 PM
    #4787
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    Go Hawks!
    Funny thing, Gordon Biersch brews Kirkland (Costco) beer. It is actually brewed in San Jose CA much closer to you than it is to me in Kirkland WA. :)
     
    907rx7 and daveeasa like this.
  8. May 1, 2021 at 1:17 AM
    #4788
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    Go Hawks!
    Which units did you get? Note that huge increases in foreground light from poorly designed LEDs lead to positive perception of output, due to humans judging light output incorrectly based on near proximity illumination and not distance, which isn't how a headlight is supposed to work.

    I will say I take issue with Lastfit, being they are IP thief scum and blatantly copied Diode Dynamics website, marketing materials, graphics and videos even down to the music. Not like kinda copied, like copy/paste verbatim, the kind that gets you expelled from college and lands you in legal trouble in court. They only recently started removing the material after facing a legal action in a lawsuit from Diode Dynamics. I fully embrace capitalistic competition and may the best company win, but you will find no support in my threads for companies that engage in IP theft.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2021
    jcampbell474, Aws123, selrod and 2 others like this.
  9. May 1, 2021 at 7:50 PM
    #4789
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    Go Hawks!
  10. May 2, 2021 at 1:31 PM
    #4790
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    5th Gen 4runner post.

    Did some comparison tests using the 5th Gen 4runner H11 assemblies.

    GE/Tungasram +130 left vs Standard Osram H11 right
    E3BA01B7-9D9C-4C22-9865-90018125610D.jpg

    Standard Osram H11 left vs GE/Tungsram +130 right
    1827E76F-5598-4354-A0CC-67EB3E68C8D9.jpg

    The GE/Tungsrams provide ~37% increase in output intensity
    45EBC922-23A0-4184-A556-069FEAD0E788.jpg

    Compared to the Philips H9 swap

    Standard Osram H11 left vs Philips H9 right
    6F843C58-7746-4366-BBA8-907DA1539CC7.jpg

    The Philips H9s gain ~42% greater output intensity vs Osram standard H11, and surprisingly only about 5% better than the GE/Tungsram +130s.
    87DB25CE-EEF4-4B40-AC08-A6D3C0AEB66B.jpg

    Comparing to the 3rd Gen Tacoma output measurements:
    [​IMG]

    Some interesting things to compare:
    • The intensity numbers for the standard Osram H11 were ~16% higher for the T4R than the 3rd Gen Tacoma.
    • The GE +130s netted a 37% gain in the T4R, vs 74% gain in the 3rd Gen Tacoma. The Tacoma has better results with about 10% higher peak intensity, 1086 lux vs 989 lux.
    • The H9s netted a 42% gain in the T4R vs ~107% gain in the 3rd Gen Tacoma. The Tacoma has ~34% better peak intensity with 1294 lux vs 1030 lux.

    That 3rd Gen Tacoma projectors respond much more favorably to performance bulb upgrades than the 4runner projectors. For performance bulb upgrades to be most effective it requires precision optics, which goes inline with what has been mentioned before. The 4runner projectors are not that great.

    LEDs
    The 4runner uses uncommon side entry projectors, where the bulb is placed across/perpendicular to the projector lens rather than inline with it. The projectors use a cap/cover on the assembly that must be rotated and removed for access to the bulb inside. I'll need to double check, but access in here seems very tight for any type of fan cooled LED. The leading common bi-directional LED blade design seems particularly problematic for these projectors, as the solid metal blade would obstruct output being placed across the projector lens, unlike a transparent halogen bulb. But also as shown in the photo below, the projector is not sealed like 3rd Gen. Meaning if the cap cannot be reinstalled with an LED, the inside of the projector is at risk of being contaminated with dirt and dust which will greatly reduce performance.

    91C66863-A351-45C4-A6BD-C32B24550317.jpg

    Other observations
    The uplight on these assemblies is very different than the Tacoma projectors. The Tacoma has a very distinct box of uplight in the center of each beam pattern directly above the hotspot. The 4runner projectors have a much softer and wider blend of light upward above the cut off, which also appears to be lower in intensity.

    Other testing notes:
    1) These assemblies were loaded with Philips Long Life (LL) H11 bulbs, which are lower output and longer life than standard bulbs. I replaced the LL bulbs with some mildly used Standard Osram H11s from other tests. So in comparing to an LL bulb if that is what you are running now, the relative gains with performance bulbs will be slightly better.
    2) Tungsram Nighthawk Xenon +120 are the best performing H11 bulb, but I did not have any of those on hand for the tests. The +130 bulbs are a close 2nd in the 3rd Gen Tacoma projector. However in the 5th Gen T4R projector, the reduced amount of blue coating on the +120s would likely have extra benefit due to the bulbs orientation in the projector.
     
    Aws123, Toy_Runner and daveeasa like this.
  11. May 2, 2021 at 1:39 PM
    #4791
    replica9000

    replica9000 Just your average meatbag.

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    So maybe the Morimoto LED headlights for the 4Runner are a better upgrade than they are for the Tacoma :notsure:

    I can say going from the LL H11 to the Phillips H9 was a noticable upgrade.
     
    Toy_Runner likes this.
  12. May 2, 2021 at 1:42 PM
    #4792
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    I have a feeling the blade obstruction will make them worse if LEDs are pointed outward and into the bowl, unsure how it will perform if the emitters were pointed up/down. I'll have to try it, but if the cap cannot close over the LED fan I'd really view it as a non-starter.
     
  13. May 2, 2021 at 2:06 PM
    #4793
    replica9000

    replica9000 Just your average meatbag.

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    I was thinking LED retrofit rather than the drop-in LEDs. If i remember correctly, the Morimoto LED replacement housing weren't too bad for the 3rd gen Taco.
     
    crashnburn80 [OP] likes this.
  14. May 2, 2021 at 4:13 PM
    #4794
    Toy_Runner

    Toy_Runner Well-Known Member

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    Excellent comparison Crash. The different design of the 4runner projector definitely seems to be inferior to the rear-entry style.
     
    crashnburn80 [OP] likes this.
  15. May 5, 2021 at 6:00 AM
    #4795
    daveeasa

    daveeasa Slowest crimp in the West

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    Super quick update, I have ordered a batch of H9 connectors which I am very hopeful are a near exact match to the OEM ones through a source from a fellow TW member. Minimum quantity was 250 and shipping was super painful. I don't own 125 H11 vehicles, so I'm hoping that there will be some decent interest. Once received I will start a BST thread and open for purchase at $10 a pair. I think most can get by simply popping out the green plastic part (described above) and replacing with the yellow H9 equivalent. And if your OEM connector is damaged for some reason, once the plastic part is removed, de-pinning and replacing the entire connector is reasonably straightforward.

    Of course you can still get by without any inner plastic part as it serves no functional purpose, but I suspect some of you would prefer to have things look legit and this should solve for that.
     
  16. May 6, 2021 at 2:07 AM
    #4796
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    Philips Ultinon Pro9000 HL LED

    The latest replacement LED headlight 'bulbs' from Philips. I haven't seen these available in the US, I ordered these out of the UK. Philips markets these as the first replacement LED on the market to use OEM grade top contact Lumiled LED chips, which should reduce width and increases focus.

    4C0388B8-3B6D-45D6-869A-E9B814CB5FC8.jpg

    First thing I always check is the width/cross section, which is a key element in focus, which is an important trait for output intensity and distance projection. Philips 2.85mm width is best in class for major name brands attempting to build a compliant LED product, but fall short of Hikari and Morimoto's latest offerings which both have better (reduced) width. For reference Sylvania 2.95mm, Hikari Ultra 2.64mm, Morimoto 2stroke 3.0 2.0mm. At this point the Philips product seems mildly underwhelming.

    Philips cross section:
    18CA4FF5-5A2C-4B20-8C8C-84F4551868CA_1_201_a.jpg

    These bulbs spec:
    1350 lumens
    5800k color temp
    18w power draw
    5000 hours life

    An H11 bulb is spec'd at 1250 lumens, these LEDs are spec'd at 1350 lumens. The H11 spec allows for +/- 15% to be compliant, these Philips LEDs are about +8% making them compliant in terms of lumen output (replacement LEDs for headlights are not currently compliant for use on public roads in the US).

    Stable operating temp 1.11A @ 13.8v, aka these draw about 15.3w. Shy of the 18w spec by my stable temp measurements.
    B9A7A695-FD33-419C-BA59-F98C62FB5A0E.jpg

    As with any performance LED, fans keep the units cool. The heat sinks stay cool/warm to the touch while the body of the LED runs warmer. It is interesting to note these use an integrated driver, so there is no external driver box.
    33B2ADA8-FEFE-4E52-B07F-7DEA68FC9D76_1_201_a.jpg

    Beam pattern comparison, Philips LED left vs GE/Tungsram +130 right (note color can be deceptive in photos)
    3F175270-67D4-4235-B932-86419CA46675.jpg

    Philips LED pattern only. Note the lack of uplight and shorter pattern height.
    A4AA4B7E-E50A-423C-983E-9884CF71468F.jpg

    GE/Tungsram +130 pattern only. Note the difference in uplight and vertical height of the pattern, which makes sense when a replacement LED only projects directional light horizontally.
    67DF5632-DBC7-4DD7-9134-A633CAF783FE.jpg

    42' Test. Philips LED left vs GE/Tungsram +130 right
    2AD9E1B5-79DA-4FDF-A848-47CCE7C130DD.jpg

    The halogens clearly do a better job in correctly placing peak intensity near the cut off for maximum distance projection, but this wasn't nearly as much of a blow out as I anticipated based on measured width, spec'd lumen output and power draw values.

    So how do they compare by the numbers? 42' Philips LED test measurement vs stock.
    0D08FBAC-B2DF-4AD0-8AA0-5A0979776E97_1_102_o.jpg

    The Philips LEDs handily beat out the stock output values, which was very surprising. Other products like Sylvania and Diode Dynamics targeted at building a compliant product have failed to exceed stock distance performance tests in the 3rd Gen projector.

    The measured color temp was a little under spec, near 5600k vs the 5800k spec.

    Comparing the Philips LEDs to the best in class focus Morimoto 2stroke 3.0s
    698A89F4-2307-466E-A000-B415FA2DA62A.jpg

    FULL STOP. Just wow. Look at that again.

    The Philips LEDs are rated at a 'legal' output rating of 1350 lumens running ~15w vs Morimotos drastically higher 2100 lumens at ~22w, yet the peak output distance intensity is within 4% between the two. How is that even possible given the Morimotos have a best in class 2.0mm width/cross section with significantly higher power and significantly higher output? Your mind should be spinning right now.

    Back to how Philips made a big deal about being the first with that OEM grade TopContact LED circuitry, it also seems their design of removing the metal housing on the upper side of the LED to facilitate unobstructed focus possibly helped significantly improved performance. When locked into place the thinner side of the LED faces upward, which is the most beneficial position to the low beam.

    upload_2021-5-6_1-13-27.jpg


    So through superior engineering design, Philips was able to get near equivalent distance output intensity while maintaining legal lumen output levels vs a smaller LED with ~55% higher lumen output. Impressive to say the least. It is almost like a major respected German lighting brand might actually know what they are doing vs those Japanese sounding brands that are just reselling China products.

    Of course even the best LEDs don't match a good halogen upgrade in peak intensity, like the GE/Tungsram +130s.
    29593038-120E-45DC-8CAB-6388F1B14DD0.jpg

    Highest output intensity LEDs tested so far have been the Hikari Ultras, included for relative comparison.
    30ACDDF6-71C9-4675-A669-2236BA6675B3_1_102_o.jpg

    My take aways:
    -The Philips Ultinon Pros will be added to my extremely exclusive list of recommended replacement LEDs
    -Product performance is exceptionally impressive for a product aimed at legally compliant output
    -This is the first product from a truly reputable manufacture to exceed stock performance in a 3rd Gen projector (and only the 3rd replacement LED tested to exceed stock performance so far)
    -Nothing replaces actual product testing
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
  17. May 6, 2021 at 3:59 AM
    #4797
    RushT

    RushT Amateur Everythingist

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    Thanks Crash, this is why testing multiple aspects is important vs reading a number on a box.

    Appreciate all the work and $$$

    Any chance you can put up a side by side with the new oem led?
     
    crashnburn80 [OP], travadol and Dtax like this.
  18. May 6, 2021 at 7:37 AM
    #4798
    Dtax

    Dtax Active Member

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    @crashnburn80 - as always this is awesome and very appreciated!

    Question/observation - looks like the Hikari comp chart is up there twice vs the GE 130s? Sorry if i a not reading that all correctly.

    thanks again!
     
    crashnburn80 [OP] likes this.
  19. May 6, 2021 at 7:42 AM
    #4799
    Steve Armstrong

    Steve Armstrong Well-Known Member

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    @ crashnburn80 - How much were these Ultinon Pros?

    And do you think they'll market them stateside?
     
  20. May 6, 2021 at 7:55 AM
    #4800
    ClimbMaintain

    ClimbMaintain Active Member

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    Looks like the purveyor of all things, Amazon, wants GBP 149.90 for them. That's about $208 in US currency.


    Screen Shot 2021-05-06 at 07.52.09 .jpg
     

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