3rd Gen HID vs LED vs Halogen H11 projector headlights

Be cautious not to double up the blue vs yellow light argument. Yes, the eye is very sensitive to blue light, even more so green wavelengths, but that IS accounted for in measuring lux. If we were talking radiance it would be a different story, but since lux is the unit used here then we have to recognize that a blue light of any given intensity will appear as the SAME brightness as a yellow light of that same intensity. They ARE the same, the RADIANCE is different, the LUX (and LUMENS) are not.

Lux IS how we perceive brightness, it already accounts for the difference the eye responds to different colors.

There is some argument that shorter wavelengths are more Aggravating to the eye as the photons have higher energy, but that is not brightness.

Even the esteemed Daniel Stern tends to mix these around whilly nilly in order to push his point.

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You are correct that all lights will be aggravating to oncoming traffic, but that doesn't discount that the H9s will be MORE aggravating. I have seen oncoming drivers physically wince when my lights hit them, I never observed that with the H11s (granted, those also suck, so there is that).

I don't believe any standard h11 will be anywhere close to an H9. High performance versions, yes, but not standard versions.

 

max fogs are a legit option at low speeds in such situations. Good quality foreground and much lower cutoffs.

 

With all the drop in LED’s, Tesla LED’s, factory LED’s, improperly adjusted headlights in general, it would seem every winter the level of blinding headlights coming from other cars is ever increasing. My modest H9 mod to improve my vision while driving in the dark seems to pale in comparison to the others out there. Well, maybe in a rise in the road they get a little taste of their own medicine? Having said that, I have not been flashed by others with my H9’s.

 

well, that is just plain untrue

The H9's are less intense than the OEM LED housings. Yes, OEM.......comes with the truck.

But yes, of course H9 is more intense than a non-performance H11 (that is the point of this whole thread)

Will a non-performance H11 solve the issue at hand? the light trajectory at a crest of a hill? probably not in a material sense

We agree to disagree - I'm out. Mostly because the person asking the question made his decision.

 

Around here is the 55mph roads I have to deal with.

 

You do know that most of the lights and LEDs out there are NOT Tacoma OEM LEDs right?

Now who is just falling for confirmation bias

 

Twisties at 55 mph? That's pretty intense.

I will readily admit I've driven through your state only once, from NY to SF on 70 and I do not remember a single thing about the terrain since that was in 1996. So I don't have any idea what it's like for you.

But I will say, the notch in the OEM LED driver side headlight is somewhat a crutch for this situation. Not 100% effective with soft suspension over undulating bumps but better than no notch.

I'm curious what your thoughts will be if you do the swap. I tried +130's and h9's in my halogen headlights, the OEM LED's seemed superior subjectively but I also don't really trust my eyes all that much and I know that lifted trucks with blue shifted headlights from LED sources can be painful at night. At the same time, good lighting from my vehicle ensures I can see the white line on my edge and keep my eyes on that as a guide. I last aimed my headlights before the new leaf pack and suspension changes so they subjectively seem like they are lower than optimal right now, haven't yet located a suitable site for headlight aiming, nor do I have much time.

Wish I had gone out to get a side by side halogen / LED photo the night I did the install. I was too chicken to drive around without a bumper and front plate. The color temp is the biggest difference, and the reflections off road markers and paint.

 

It really is mostly flat. It's the Ohio valley where I am at after all. But, I live in the country and frequently travel the roads that exist to connect to other roads. Half my driving is on roads that a normal horse trailer touches both lines and making them flat would have required a dozer operator with at least a GED, and that was too expensive.

I am really hopeful that the OEM LEDs give a bit more width to the beam. Throw with my H9s is acceptable, but a widening of the hot spot would be appreciated. I will admit, with the corn fields around here the golden color of the halogens tends to blend a bit and I like the crisper color of my Hikari Ultras in the high beams. I didn't like them in the low beams and I am excited the OEM LEDs may give me that color and crispness without the drawbacks.

I'm glad you mentioned taking pictures and videos, I can certainly do that when I swap. May be one day to the next but I can try and find two days with similar weather.
I have everything I need to do the OEM swap now I just need to finish printing the parts I need. One of my lights is pretty busted up and try as I might 3d scanning just isn't working out. Probably just going to design some crap that can work and throw the files online for others, getting that fits and looks good is holding me back so might as well get out something useful.

Edit
As for aiming I use a laser level now, handy for a ton of things. You can use a yardstick to ensure your wheel spots are level. Lay it on the floor of the garage and find out if the four spots are level, shim the truck if needed (aka, drive over a board).
Then put the yardstick (or broom handle) directly in front of the lights and the laser level on the hood. Mark the laser level line and the cutoff. Now walk out 25' and make sure the laser level line is the same spot on your broomstick, then see where the cutoff is to get your alignment (same spot or slightly below). I actually aim down whatever the recommended amount is just o reduce how frequently the cutoff is pointing upward

 

That is not how it works. You fail to understand human perceived intensity vs instrumented measured intensity. Lux/Candela is purely instrumented intensity. High color temp, short wavelength, blue light scatters internally in the human eye which causes internal glare within the eye and blindness to the high color temperature, leading to substantially disproportionate ill effects from blue light vs yellow, causing short wavelength (blue) light to be far more harmful. This is well established medical fact. Lux/candela is just measured intensity and does not account for the interactions within the human vision system.

 

oh, FFS

there are many examples out there of modern OEM vehicles with LED headlights, where people's on road experience is discomfort for all the reasons crashburn80 outlines.
I used Tacoma OEM LED as one example, mostly since I would find it humorous that the thought of CHiP / cops pulling you over for OEM equipment that is brighter than the person asking the question was worried about H9

 

it's been done, but not a driving photo

 

And you did it again, you said brightness in your last comment and intensity in this one. This is my point, the instrument you use is a Luxmeter, that already accounts for how the human eye responds to different wavelengths to normalize "brightness"/Intensity.

The human perceived intensity is the SAME as the instrumented intensity when talking lux. Lux accounts for how the eye responds to different wavelengths. Lux accounts for perceived brightness.


I already mentioned that blue light can be more aggravating, but that is different from intensity/brightness.

You seem to be using the difference in RADIOMETRIC values and applying it again to Lux, but lux already accounts for that.


To quote wiki since it has the most concise definition.

The lux (symbol: lx) is the unit of illuminance, or luminous flux per unit area, in the International System of Units (SI).[1][2] It is equal to one lumen per square metre. In photometry, this is used as a measure of the intensity, as perceived by the human eye, of light that hits or passes through a surface. It is analogous to the radiometric unit watt per square metre, but with the power at each wavelength weighted according to the luminosity function, a model of human visual brightness perception, standardized by the CIE and ISO.[3]

and

A luminous efficiency function or luminosity function represents the average spectral sensitivity of human visual perception of light. It is based on subjective judgements of which of a pair of different-colored lights is brighter, to describe relative sensitivity to light of different wavelengths. It is not an absolute reference to any particular individual, but is a standard observer representation of visual sensitivity of theoretical human eye.

and Lumen as well

The lumen (symbol: lm) is the unit of luminous flux, a measure of the total quantity of visible light emitted by a source per unit of time, in the International System of Units (SI). Luminous flux differs from power (radiant flux) in that radiant flux includes all electromagnetic waves emitted, while luminous flux is weighted according to a model (a "luminosity function") of the human eye's sensitivity to various wavelengths, this weighting is standardized by the CIE and ISO.[2] One lux is one lumen per square metre.

 

Sigh.

Given 2 light sources of equal intensity, one at 3200k and one at 6000k. If an observer stands behind the light sources with them pointed at a wall, the observer seeing the output on the wall would rate their output nearly the same. The lux readings for peak intensity are identical.

If the observer stands in front of the light source with the light source shining directly into their eyes, the observer will rate the 6000k light source as brighter/higher intensity/more aggravating. The lux readings and intensity between the light sources is the same. The 6000k light source pointed into the observers eyes scatters light within the eye and causes glare making it difficult to see, hence the observers perception that the light source pointed into their eyes is brighter/higher intensity than it actually is.

 

If Lux is the same then apparent brightness is the same, that is Lux by the very definition of the standard. To that same point, if Lux is the same then intensity IS the same.

An excerpt from ISO/CIE 23539:2023 (note, emission and reflection are both identified)

The purpose of photometry is to measure light as perceived by human eyes. The brightness of a luminous surface {emitter - Firn} depends not only on the amount of radiation it emits, transmits or reflects, but also on its spectral composition and on the visual response function of the observer viewing it. Because human visual response varies at different light levels and from person to person, precise photometry requires the definition of representative standard observers. The CIE system of physical photometry specifies procedures for the quantitative evaluation of optical radiation in terms of internationally agreed spectral luminous efficiency functions for human vision. V(λ) represents photopic vision, V'(λ) represents scotopic vision and V (λ) represents mesopic vision, the latter being intermediate between photopic and scotopic vision. Furthermore, V (λ) represents 10° photopic vision. These luminous efficiency functions adopted from CIE 018:2019 and BIPM-2019/05, together with the SI base unit, the candela, constitute a system that enables the calculation of values of photometric quantities for optical radiation as well as light-emitting, light-transmitting or light-reflecting surfaces, to be precisely determined based on the International System of Units (SI), regardless of the spectral composition of the radiation emitted, transmitted or reflected.


At any given radiometric value (w/m^2) blue light will appear brighter. This is where much of this stems from, blue light is "brighter" when the base unit is in radiometric terms [aka power, Watts], but that is not true in Lumen/Lux. For any given wattage (assuming emitter is 100% efficient) then blue light will appear brighter. But this is accounted for when the base unit is Lumen/Lux as defined by the standard, but frequently this is applied again with the claim that blue light is "brighter", it is not when the base terms are Lumen/Lux

 

Me neither, every Damm corner store is selling cheap LED bulbs and every fool is installing them from Toyota corolla to smart car, blinding everyone on the road

 

I’m trying to get my dad to take a cheap pair of GTR LED’s out and toss them. People got to be flipping him off. I know I would.
It does seem that a lot of people are going to these light scattering LED’s.

 

Oh I assure you I understand the technical terminology. Quoting Wikipedia here isn't doing you any favors.

Look at the scientific NHSTA reports on low color temp/short wavelength headlight glare to oncoming drivers:

"Spectral power distribution also affected discomfort (even though it did not affect visual performance) with the high intensity discharge headlamps eliciting ratings of greater discomfort than the halogen and blue filtered halogen headlamps, when the glare illuminance was held constant."

https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/final-report_rpi_glare_spectrum.pdf

While this is older and for HID, the conclusion that spectral power distribution (aka increases in short wavelength light distribution) cause greater "discomfort" to oncoming drivers vs their long wavelength counterparts typical of halogens. This would be significantly increased for LED compared to HID due to LEDs spectral power distribution in short wavelength high amplitude frequency of LED, leading to significantly worse effects. Note that the study held illuminance constant between light sources, yet the higher color temp HID was rated as worse/greater discomfort.

AKA even though the light source is equal intensity, subjects rate it as causing greater discomfort. If you have experience in this field, you'd know that these subjects would describe the greater discomfort/blinding qualities of the high color temp light source as "brighter" or "higher intensity". Even though those are not technically accurate descriptions that represent the light source qualities but that is how many describe the blinding effects of the higher color temp light due to the aggravation/discomfort, hence why I called them "perceived".

Regardless of how you want to split hairs, the leading Govt agency on headlight safety specifically states that headlight spectral composition can cause greater negative effects despite the luminescence being held constant. Which is exactly what I have been saying all along and you seem to keep rebutting.

But to come full circle you asked how to not blind those that fall below your cut offs on hilly roads. Your question was answered and you didn't seem to care for the answer. I can assure you this course isn't going to end any better.

 

I have made my point and supported it with the actual scientific standards. I have addressed this exact item multiple times and delineated it clearly but you are ignoring that, gaslighting the conversation, and using condescending remarks as a foundation for your argument.

There is nothing new to discuss here as I have addressed all these points previously, you can choose to ignore that if you wish but I'm not going over this again.

 

Don’t sweat it, Crash. If you’ve been to space 4 times and wanted to detail your experiences, he’d still try to disregard all of your findings, even though he’s never been once. He does it in every thread. Because he knows EVERYTHING. Lol. He’s a weird dude.