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3rd Gen HID vs LED vs Halogen H11 projector headlights

Discussion in '3rd Gen. Tacomas (2016+)' started by crashnburn80, Jan 25, 2019.

  1. Oct 20, 2019 at 5:21 PM
    #1701
    replica9000

    replica9000 ./$0|./$0&

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  2. Oct 20, 2019 at 5:24 PM
    #1702
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    Already have a line on a set. They will be included in this thread once they are available.
     
  3. Oct 20, 2019 at 5:28 PM
    #1703
    El Duderino

    El Duderino Who the hell cares about MPGs, its a truck

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    Stuff, things, this, an ADS
    Awesome
     
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  4. Oct 20, 2019 at 5:38 PM
    #1704
    replica9000

    replica9000 ./$0|./$0&

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    So driving on a poorly maintained highway in the rain, I'm starting to miss the HPSV lighting. Not a fan of the LED lighting replacing it. The color temperature seems to make the wet roads look more glossy/reflective, making the faded lines less visible.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2019
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  5. Oct 20, 2019 at 6:30 PM
    #1705
    TACO_ROCKET

    TACO_ROCKET Well-Known Member

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    LEDs are awesome...








    Until there is inclement weather.
     
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  6. Oct 20, 2019 at 6:45 PM
    #1706
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    Yep. The high color temp leads to a ton of surface refraction on wet/snowy/frozen surfaces, so you see more glare on the roadway vs the road stripes below the moisture. I very much dislike it. I've actually read an interesting study how LED street lights produce environments especially challenging for older individuals, who have a more difficult time focusing when dealing with the short wavelength glare. Really though LEDs are not the problem, LEDs should be utilized, it is the color temperature of the cheaper blue LEDs that are used that is the problem, rather than using better warmer LEDs for the purpose.
     
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  7. Oct 22, 2019 at 1:08 PM
    #1707
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    Getting ready for a high beam performance boost with KC’s SAE J581 compliant Pro6 Driving lights! Dedicated high beam thread to follow.

    BEB353FF-F654-40F7-A838-ED5533393F8E.jpg

    (And single on the box means single pair. I was momentarily quite concerned I only received one.)
     
    skierd, Boghog1, ERod27 and 2 others like this.
  8. Oct 22, 2019 at 3:38 PM
    #1708
    Boghog1

    Boghog1 Jack of all trades, master of none.

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    @crashnburn80 you need to update you sig with all your great threads
     
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  9. Oct 22, 2019 at 4:31 PM
    #1709
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    Go Hawks!
    I should really do a build thread to contain all my mod posts that don’t have a dedicated thread. :)
     
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  10. Oct 22, 2019 at 7:15 PM
    #1710
    Aodhan

    Aodhan Active Member

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    @crashnburn80,

    I just want to add my two cents on these Hikari bulbs. I back in October of 2018 I picked up my Tacoma, and started my hunt for LEDs for high and low. I finally found these this Hikari bulbs and have will have been running them for a full year on Oct 27. Through almost all PNW weather conditions these have been fantastic. The only slight issue I have was with ice, not snow. They generated enough heat, to my surprise, to prevent snow build up, but when crossing Snoqualmie pass on an icy night, i did have to stop twice to deal with icing. I was never completely without light, i could just see it refracting(if that is the right word) light in odd directions.

    I have had these in super dusty, muddy, and wet environments and never had an issue with the fans. While the engine is on, I can't hear them, but when the engine is off, they do have a noticeable hum if you listen close enough.

    For install notes, make sure they are being placed in the house with the wedge in the correct position. If you put them in upside down, the light is all over the place and blinding to others. I did also have to adjust the aim on the housing to make sure it was not an issue for other drivers.

    I will say, for having them in for almost a year both high beam and low beam, I could not be happier. Sure I would not mind the new XBs, but the Hikari bulbs have not let me down.

    To see you rate these pretty good, makes me happy.

    I'll update the post if I ever have an issue with them.

     
    Rockoma5 and crashnburn80 [OP] like this.
  11. Oct 22, 2019 at 7:18 PM
    #1711
    TheTurk

    TheTurk Well-Known Member

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    Do they have any options for 6500k color temperature?
     
  12. Oct 23, 2019 at 9:21 PM
    #1712
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    Pro6 boosted high beam testing

    74A7E553-24EE-41F7-B1D6-BE04C5AF4C2F.jpg

    This was just a quick and dirty test to see what these bring to the table.

    KC Pro6 SAE LED Driving lights
    085B7FEA-F91F-4DF5-9BB7-2B28B961E877.jpg

    Combined stock + Pro6 driving high beam (single light)
    EC09285E-DD74-474D-B98F-F8CDF8896924.jpg

    High beam is inherently a bit more difficult to photograph. Toning down the saturation reduces the beam shape, higher saturation causes wash out.

    The Pro6 beam is wider than pictured, but the center of the beam (shown) is higher intensity for better distance projection. These lights have a best in class distance projection for an SAE driving light, better than competing 30” light bars. The pattern is more focused than the stock high beam.

    Comparison when adding to the stock high beam:
    6D691C80-DF48-4049-8920-A0CED9D255C5.jpg

    Peak output intensity is increased by 166%. The KC color temp I measured at ~5150k, just slightly higher than the spec’d 5000k. The color temp reading above is lower as it is the combined high beam.

    The KC pattern control thanks to the reflector design is very evident when looking at the light, as it is no way offensive to look at if not directly in the beam pattern. Unlike a light bar that is just glaring and harsh to look at. The reflector design maximizes the effectiveness of the light source by having much greater focus and less wasted light causing it to be far more efficient in projecting distance compared to the forward facing LED light bar style products. This is another case where just looking at raw lumens or power is misleading in terms of lighting performance.

    Just don’t look at the light from within the beam pattern.
    87077B5B-F47E-4060-8970-E3968AF29DF6.jpg

    Just waiting for my custom grill for vehicle based testing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
  13. Oct 23, 2019 at 9:23 PM
    #1713
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    Answered via PM but for others the Hikari was about 6300k, which is reasonably close.
     
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  14. Oct 24, 2019 at 5:05 AM
    #1714
    Mclovin80

    Mclovin80 Scrumtrulescent

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    Driving home last night in the upside-down world...I mean a poorly lit road in Colorado I quickly realized that my 5500k H11B Hybrid FastBright 35W/Morimoto HID headlight bulbs were not doing a very good job compared to the stock ones. They are great in all other driving conditions at night. I only have 7,800 miles on my 2018 and replaced my bulbs within the first 1,000 miles, so I guess I have not driven in the snow much with this truck compared to my 2015. I did not have this issue with the LED bulbs in my 2015 though. I had RSI 6500k LEDs in my 2015 and H11B Hybrid FastBright/Morimoto HID Kit in my 2018. Maybe time for a switch?

    It was snowing pretty good but not a blizzard by any means. My wife took this picture from the passenger seat.

    upload_2019-10-24_5-46-18.jpg
     
  15. Oct 24, 2019 at 12:16 PM
    #1715
    skierd

    skierd Well-Known Member

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    Phillips H9’s, at 3200k, cut through the snow without glare. Color temp and aim help. I didn’t care for the 4300k HIDs I ran for a month last winter either, too much glare in blowing snow.

    It could be you had no issues with the LED’s in your 2015 because they weren’t putting light evenly in the reflector, so the lack of glare was from parts of the reflector not being used.
     
  16. Oct 24, 2019 at 12:28 PM
    #1716
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    Warp Speed! :)

    High color temperature light is definitely counterproductive in snowing environments, LEDs have the same issue as it is an effect of the color temp. Most LEDs in a reflector housing lack strong focus so the light is actually not as bright, which also means the light reflected back off the snow is not as bright. Or the snow you drove in before was dryer, so it was not as reflective. Difficult to say exactly why your experience was different, but the effect is due to light color and output intensity, so all things equal both technologies of similar colors will experience the same issue. Halogens are lower color temperature, so while the issue is still present, it is at a lower level and not nearly as distracting. That and they will do the best job in preventing icing on the lens for cold weather environments.
     
  17. Oct 24, 2019 at 1:46 PM
    #1717
    eLEMONator

    eLEMONator New Member

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    Hello OP!

    First off, thank you SO much for this writeup! It's nice to hear from another engineer who knows what they are talking about and can spread scientific knowledge instead of pure conjecture.

    Since this thread is massive now, I see that your plug-and-play recommendation is the GE Nightbreaker Xenon +120. Is that still the case? What are your thoughts about the XD Xenons with the Philips 43K bulb or even the Philips XV2 48K bulb? When you made your original post you had said that XD discontinued the high performing German made Philips HID bulbs, which at least appears to be incorrect as of now?

    I'd love to get your insight!
     
    crashnburn80 [OP] likes this.
  18. Oct 24, 2019 at 2:38 PM
    #1718
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    Best direct plug and play H11 is still the GE Xenon +120. If it were my truck, I'd likely run the Philips H9 and modify the bulb base to make it plug and play. I personally prefer the warmer color light of the Philips H9 for poor weather driving conditions (I'm in the PNW), and the fuller beam patterns the H9 provides over the more focused high efficiency H11.

    For HID, the halogen projectors still allow uplight, which is intended for halogen levels of output. The amount of light output when using an HID capsule is pretty extreme, meaning the uplight is also drastically amplified. If you were to run an FMVSS headlight tests, you'll end up with levels of glare high over the legal limit even though you are running a projector, because it is a halogen projector with uplight, not an HID projector with complete cut offs. I also don't see the complexity of the HIDs requiring ballasts and warm up time as worth it when you could double your output in a much simpler system with a $7 bulb. And the halogen bulb does not have the same snow issues pictured earlier as well as keeps the lenses from freezing over in cold weather environments. One other thing I'll add, is if you have too much light, the significant contrast at the cut off of extreme brightness (especially with whiter light) vs extreme darkness actually makes it more difficult to see distance at night as your eyes become very limited to what is below the cut off.

    XD did bring back the Philips 4300k bulb after the TRS buyout. The bulb now has a different base, the original had an actual halogen bulb style base, the new one has the XD HID bulb base for use in halogen assemblies. The new base is not as user friendly IMO, but won't change product performance once installed.

    If you were to go HIDs, I would stay with the XD 4300k Philips bulb myself, for the reasons above about warmer color temps being more ideal in poor weather, and lower color temps are also less fatiguing to drive with. I would not recommend the XD ballast, it is off spec and the two units I had were both ~20% over wattage and also different wattage from each other. Instead I would look to purchase a Denso ballast (which is Toyota's OEM supplier). TRS sells Denso ballasts for rebased HID kits. They do cost more, but you are getting an OEM supplier grade Japanese made product of much higher quality, vs a Chinese made ballast.

    But for the $14 investment in doubling your headlight output with the Philips H9s, I'd start there. You can even remove them from your current high beam, trim the tab, swap them into your low beam and test them out with no money out of pocket (assuming your high beams are not heavily used and the bulbs are near new condition).
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2019
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  19. Oct 24, 2019 at 2:48 PM
    #1719
    eLEMONator

    eLEMONator New Member

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    Thank you so much for the reply! Glad to know your information is still accurate.

    The GE Xenon +120 does sound like the way to go, especially considering the downsides and workarounds for the HID bulbs. I am in FL, so I don't need to worry about snow, but rain is a definite consideration here.

    Another one that I'm curious about the claims they make are the Philips X-tremeUltinon LED which is a 6000 K bulb. Significantly higher color temp, but the claims they are making sound really good on paper. I'm guessing it suffers the same downsides as the other LED alternatives you tested?
     
    crashnburn80 [OP] likes this.
  20. Oct 24, 2019 at 3:37 PM
    #1720
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    I have the new Philips X-tremeUltinon LEDs in the H4 style 'bulb' and the previous generation ones but I do not have them in the H11. (ignore the background mess)

    8F90A47E-5227-437F-A555-CF76F5393887.jpg


    Recall that the LED width is critical to focus and distance projection. Strangely the new Philips are wider than the previous generation, which will mean less focused. I haven't tested them yet for a comparison.

    Many of the more reputable lighting companies are working to legalize drop in LED replacement products, but they will have to meet new test compliance standards. One of those tests will be glare, which is a significant problem for drop in LED products in reflector housings. Since for a given design in a given housing, the more light produced causes glare to increase in a roughly linear fashion, a way to minimize the problem is make the product only as bright as it needs to be. Thus reducing the level of glare produced. So you'll notice that most these reputable brand products are really more of a technology transition product targeting OEM levels of output rather than the significant lighting performance upgrades many on here are seeking with an LED replacement. If you look at my distance test results from brands like Sylvania and Diode Dynamics, that is about what you see, something similar to stock output. The LED products that produce significant gains in the projector like the Hikaris will certainly fail any kind of compliance tests in a reflector housing due to extreme glare. Reputable companies designing these products need to design them to work in any light assembly, as the product classification is H11, there is no distinction for which vehicle it is installed in.

    'Brightness' claims can also be very misleading, as some companies use light color as a way to advertise output brightness. Those previous gen Philips that advertise '150% more light' actually produce less light than stock. A stock H4 puts out 1100-1500 lumens, where as the Philips LEDs put out 1000-1250 lumens. You can see the output specs on the spec tab here: https://www.xenondepot.com/h4-philips-12953BWX2-LED-Bulb-p/12953bwx2.htm

    If you were looking for LEDs for the 3rd Gen projector, I would use the Hikaris over the Philips for a lighting performance upgrade. Though the Philips will certainly be of superior build quality and reliability over the Hikaris.
     
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