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3rd Gen HID vs LED vs Halogen H11 projector headlights

Discussion in '3rd Gen. Tacomas (2016+)' started by crashnburn80, Jan 25, 2019.

  1. Nov 5, 2019 at 6:56 AM
    #1781
    TACO_ROCKET

    TACO_ROCKET Well-Known Member

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    Are you talking about an HID projector?
     
  2. Nov 5, 2019 at 7:03 AM
    #1782
    mistareeman

    mistareeman Member

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    Yessir. HID projector in the stock OR headlight housing.
     
  3. Nov 5, 2019 at 7:05 AM
    #1783
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    I do generalize sometimes. One of the challenges I have is most seem to think their specific LEDs in their specific reflectors don’t cause any additional glare, and the one product they tried works and they bought just the right product for their reflector application and while seemingly everyone else bought the wrong thing for their application, they are the exception to the rule. And often they got it for less than $50 off Amazon. They’ll show wall shots with light clearly going where it is not supposed to and when that is pointed out they try to justify that it doesn’t seem that bad or that the cut off line still still looks ok, that it doesn’t seem to bother them. And really wall shots are not a good glare test to begin with. I used to try to counter these claims one by one and they were always false, but it just isn’t worth my time. It is possible to design an LED to pass a FVMSS test, but it won’t be a super bright one like many people are trying to run, because that will add illegal levels of glare, which is why the reputable brands make LEDs closer to stock output levels. Diode Dynamics got their LED to pass FVMSS in a 2015 F-150 reflector, it is 1630 lumens as the output has to be moderated to keep the glare under control. I’m pretty sure the Hikaris are in the ballpark of 2500 lumens by comparison. And while you mention some vehicles could benefit from a few degrees in headlight angle change, this isn’t the cut off I am talking about, it is glare above the cut off. They are not the same. It isn’t as if the cut off shifts up a few degrees and you need to adjust it back, it is the lack of light above the cut off is no longer the same, as it has increased. A wall shot picture may show a very high intensity white light cut off, but hides the fact that light has increased significantly above the cut off due to the high contrast of the image or even looking at the wall in person, which is one of the reasons why the wall shots are not ideal. And the brighter the LED, the higher that contrast. A wall shot is better than nothing but this is where the FVMSS comes in to provide real quantitative data.

    There are SAE technical papers on the subject that you must be a professional level SAE member to review, though LEDs have continued to improve since the latest publication I’ve read. Another lighting enthusiast who does their own FVMSS tests on LEDs and shares the results as well as a bunch of other interesting automotive LED info is ‘Automotive LED Research’. You can follow him on Facebook.
     
  4. Nov 5, 2019 at 7:07 AM
    #1784
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    The bouncing issue is from the Tacoma projector. A true HID retrofit replaces the halogen projector with an HID projector. Since the projector is replaced, it won’t have the bouncing issue.
     
  5. Nov 5, 2019 at 7:48 AM
    #1785
    gurneyeagle

    gurneyeagle Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes this thread is like watching someone, mainly crash, beat his head against the wall. No amount of scientific data and real world testing are going to change the minds of guys who want LED headlights in a vehicle that wasn't designed for it, no matter what the wife says about oncoming glare. Seriously?

    Just curious as to the backgrounds; i.e. education levels, of some of you who continue to dispute crash. :deadhorse:
     
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  6. Nov 5, 2019 at 8:04 AM
    #1786
    CAG Gonzo

    CAG Gonzo Ascendant Spaghetti

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    Is the current assessment that all tested LED bulbs do not perform well (and some may even be hazardous for other drivers) in stock Tacoma projectors? Thus the logical option is to stick with a halogen? And that this course of action applies to both low and high beams? And that all these statements are corroborated by the rigorous testing performed by OP? I want to make sure I have the facts before I let my opinions of other statements cloud my judgment.
     
  7. Nov 5, 2019 at 8:16 AM
    #1787
    ANTupLIFE

    ANTupLIFE Well-Known Member

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    There should definitely be a dedicated thread with scientific data for LEDs. They've been a bit disruptive.

    So far the data provided here has helped a lot of members. More so than those who want other options. I'm a little over a year with the same Hellas for lows and GE +130 for my fogs. I've purposely ridden side by side many vehicles with LEDs, and the benefit of proper bulbs has proved itself time and time again. It's actually normal to see a brand new Chevy / GMC with factory LEDs use their high beams more often than not. Proper bulbs will be the way for me until I get around to retrofitting next year.
     
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  8. Nov 5, 2019 at 9:25 AM
    #1788
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    No, my earlier comments a few posts above were in regards to reflectors. Projectors do not have an issue with hazardous LED glare by design of the projector light shield providing cut offs, independent of the LED light source. The issue with LEDs in projectors is lack of focus, which causes loss of distance projection even though the light source may be brighter. The smaller projector housings are far more sensitive to geometry changes from the larger LED light source, as the relative change in position by using a wider LED is more significant in a compact lighting assembly like a projector. See post #3 in this thread for the additional LED testing, I've tried to keep the relevant data in the first 3 posts. So far the Hikaris are the only drop in replacement LED I have tested that outperform a stock bulb at distance. While the design is cleaver, their build quality and reliability may be questionable for long term use. For those really wanting LEDs, the Morimoto XB replacement housings are the best way to go, though their high beam performance is lacking.
     
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  9. Nov 5, 2019 at 9:35 AM
    #1789
    Deucer01

    Deucer01 Well-Known Member

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    You comprehend well Sir. :thumbsup:
     
  10. Nov 5, 2019 at 9:40 AM
    #1790
    Deucer01

    Deucer01 Well-Known Member

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    I think he meant stock Tacoma reflectors in his first sentence. :notsure:
     
  11. Nov 5, 2019 at 12:26 PM
    #1791
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    The Pro6 amber covers came in for the high beam project! An amber cover over a white LEDs makes for yellower light. I'd like something lower in color temperature for poor weather performance. It will be interesting to test how these perform.

    1BD387C3-5A05-45BE-A8FB-2A85F19DC7DF.jpg

    Before I get to that though, I need to figure out modifying my 3rd Gen Rigid 360s series fog mounts to have a level beam when installed on my 2nd Gen.

    [​IMG]
     
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  12. Nov 5, 2019 at 1:59 PM
    #1792
    replica9000

    replica9000 ./$0|./$0&

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    That's some sound logic right there :rolleyes:
     
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  13. Nov 5, 2019 at 2:56 PM
    #1793
    Quacktacular81

    Quacktacular81 Member

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    I've read through about 50% of this thread (skipped most of the middle), and see how thoughts have changed a bit over time. I have a 2020 TRD OR. Based on info here I ordered a set of the Philips H9's for the lows, but don't know which direction to go for the stock fogs. I see that the TRD's are supposed to have the H11 housing, but it appears that the 2020's changed to the H16 that the older non-TRD's have.

    Is there a good upgrade halogen option for the H16 fogs, or is it best to replace the housing with the factory LED fogs (PT413-42191) and be done with it?
     
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  14. Nov 5, 2019 at 3:38 PM
    #1794
    Tullie D

    Tullie D Well-Known Member

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    Welcome to the forum from Eastern North Carolina.

    I have a 2019 SR5, and it had H16 fogs. I replaced them with H11 Nokya NOK7618 Hyper Yellow bulbs. I also put H9 bulbs in the low beams. I am very satisfied with the performance, and didn't spend a lot of money.

     
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  15. Nov 5, 2019 at 4:06 PM
    #1795
    DOSS

    DOSS Well-Known Member

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    Mostly wasn't concerned with brighter, just a different colour as my eyes seem to be getting old and the whiter light works better for me. I also didn't want to blind other people so taking into account the data where the LED's that were similar in thickness seemed to not have an issue with cutoff and blasting other people I went LED.. We will see how long they last but right now driving at night is amazingly better for me. Thank you for all the work you went into compiling this data to help others make the choice that is best for them (and for also not being a dick ;) )
     
  16. Nov 5, 2019 at 4:08 PM
    #1796
    crashnburn80

    crashnburn80 [OP] Vehicle Design Engineer

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    Are you located in Canada by chance? The Canadian trucks only came with H16s. It would be disappointing if the 2020s TRD trucks switched to H16s. You might try the H11 swap mentioned below. That is the first I've heard of someone successfully doing it that I recall.

    Those Toyota LED fogs are a great budget buy if you don't mind the high color temperature. You can see my review on them here: Toyota LED fogs. If looking for a white fog that is a direct fit in the OEM location, the KC G4s are a much higher performing option, with a larger pattern area and better color temperature at 5000k. They were covered in the original post in the SAE fog thread. For poor weather, the high color temp of the white LEDs isn't ideal, I much prefer the poor weather performance of selective yellow. Rigid Selective Yellow D-series pods require adapter plates to mount, or the new Rigid 360 Series will swap directly into the OEM location with the Tacoma brackets due out later this month. Of course all these higher performing LED options are significantly more expensive than Toyota's LED fogs, which are already more expensive than just a bulb swap. :)

    Good info! I think I've heard others have issues with the tabs on the H11s seating into the fog housing, but that can be bulb specific. I've not tried it myself.
     
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  17. Nov 5, 2019 at 7:48 PM
    #1797
    Quacktacular81

    Quacktacular81 Member

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    Thanks! I'll take a look at those.

    I am in Southwest Colorado, so it shouldn't be a US / Canada issue. I am ok with running the stock fog setup for now and dig into the fog specific thread another day. Winter snow performance is more important than the looks of a whiter light.

    I assume I could test fit the stock lows in the fog housing? If that works, would there be any drawbacks with running them?
     
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  18. Nov 5, 2019 at 8:58 PM
    #1798
    CAG Gonzo

    CAG Gonzo Ascendant Spaghetti

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    I'll amend my question to then be: is the consensus that LEDs, at least those you've tested, are not suited for stock Tacoma projectors, for the reasons you've listed above? I'm asking this because a lot of people in and out of this thread are raving about LEDs and going with a simple "looks good to me" as a claim for their efficacy. Some disregard the data excellently presented here. It's very easy to want to think unsavory thoughts about such decision making and boneheadedness, so I want to make sure I got the facts so I'm not becoming a bone head myself.

    I'll add that not everyone who opts for LEDs is a bone head.
     
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  19. Nov 6, 2019 at 2:16 AM
    #1799
    Garab

    Garab Well-Known Member

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    There's alot of people on this site that think because they spent their money on something that makes it the best because some company made some BS unsupported claims. Its cometely placbo. They're told its the best therefore they buy it hook line and sinker and fight vehemently anyone who suggests otherwise. (This extends beyond headlights).

    LED bulbs will never perform as well in projectors designed for incandescence because the width of the bulb throws off the focus of the projectors and the beam doesnt project long distances not only because the reflectord in the projector assembly cant focus the beam. The color of LED light is non continuous meaning its got holes in the color spectrum and is harsher on the eyes compared to an incandescent bulb which is a continuous spectrum of color and produces a more natural light that is easier on the eyes.
     
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  20. Nov 6, 2019 at 2:42 AM
    #1800
    Tullie D

    Tullie D Well-Known Member

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    Calling them bone heads is better than some things. . .


    I really don't understand the obsession with LEDs.
     
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