3rd Gen vs 4th Gen

Toyota has been making the most refined(and one of the simplest) hybrid system for 20 years in the Prius and it's failure rate is tiny, they have succeeded in removing many of the failing mechanisms that have caused hybrid systems to have difficultly in the past such as alternators. I'll go fully vetted hybrid first before electric. We're still years away from proper electric infrastructure regardless of what any politician tells you.

Edit: solid state is the battery of the near future and they aren't even around yet. Supplies of lithium are smaller than supplies of petrol, waiting on the advancement in tech

 

I’m not big on buying year 1 of an all new vehicle. But out your lease and drive it another two years.

 

So you think that it's OK when a Service Technician tells you that the problem that you are experiencing with your NEW $40K vehicle is "Normal" And refuses to investigate any further without a TSB or recall? Interesting.

It very well could have been just the Dealer. I didn't have a "pleasant" experience dealing with Toyota Corp. after filing ticket for an unaddressed mechanical concern with them.

I wish life was as easy as some people think that it is. "Just go sell your vehicle and buy something else". "Just don't shop at that location" ect. ect. Some situations leave you with few choices.

 

While it is true that Toyota has made the Prius one of the most reliable vehicles, I believe that speaks to the focus and money they've thrown at it. Their reputation depends on it and they have a lot invested in the hybrid system.

The same engineers, with the same amount of money and focus, can make a simpler machine (ie, ICE only) more reliable than a machine with more components and multiple systems (Hybrid). Complexity is the absolute enemy of reliability.

A four cylinder is more reliable than a six. A 2wd is more reliable than a 4wd. And so on.

 

New body.
New engine.
New interior.
New technology.
New safety features.

 

Agreed, they did put quite a bit of work into the existing generation. But it wasn't a new body, and they only changed one of the two engines, and only the front half of the interior, and the new safety features weren't introduced until 2 years later.

Almost makes you wonder why not just release a new generation instead.

It's an argument I made back in 2015, and one I stand behind as a quasi-expert in the field. I think anyone who takes a proper look at the details will come out understanding that it was certainly not a new generation. Any other conclusion would make me think they were willfully ignorant or operating under a completely different definition of what constitutes a generation in the automotive industry.

Jeff

 

But the steering wheel was the same as the 2nd gen lol

 

All I'm saying is tge prius is a great way of figuring out what works and what doesn't. If you dump R&D into something for as long as they have, I expect they will take that and apply it more to other platforms before a full commitment to 100% EV

 

This is exactly why I did not hesitate to get a '16. Its really not a new truck. Like you said, evolution, not revolution. The 2025 models will have 20 years of real world R&D in the chassis. I think that's pretty cool.

 

The body is definitely new. Like, very obviously new. From the grille to the tailgate.
The new safety features (I’m primarily talking air bags here) were definitely new for the third gens. It’s a completely reworked and improved system.
The V6 is certainly the more popular engine and that’s the one they changed.
The tech is a big upgrade as well.
I’ll give you that it’s not a COMPLETELY different vehicle, but it’s certainly a new generation.

 

Actually the cab is exactly the same as the 2nd Gen but with the addition of high strength steels.

 

Yes, the body is very updated. There was extensive restamping done on a lot of body panels, including raising up the bed sides and installing brackets underneath the fender mounting to raise the hoodline. A new cowl and windshield were developed to match, and the mouldings were updated accordingly. The entire cab is basically the same though, with some new outer sheet metal. Not all the panels are new though, like I had mentioned in my other post. The rear doors are exactly the same part numbers for 2005-2021 (for the access cab), as is the side and back glass. The roof had an antenna stuck onto it, and some models got a new light, but otherwise it's still the same. Have you taken a look at how the grille on the 2016+ has these two huge plastic brackets on it so that it can reach all the way back to where the rad support is on the earlier models?

Take a look at this 2009 Tacoma for instance:


Or this 2010:


I also get a kick out of the fact that Toyota didn't even change the drawings of the truck in the manual where they show the exterior dimensions for the 2016:


Here are some dimensional comparisons between the two. They don't show all the same dimensions, and there are some small variations around where the windshield was updated for instance, but it's kind of interesting.

$73 2005-2015 Toyota Tacoma With 4L Right Petrol intake air snorkel kit high performance system compatible kit Replacement black Rotational Molding (2005-2015)

2005-2015:



2006-2021:


Frames:
2005-2015:


2016-2021:

So new and improved they use the same diagram in the parts catalog for 2005 all the way until 2017:



The only functional difference was that they added knee airbags in 2016.

It's actually funny when you go to look up the airbag information in the new car features manual for the 2016-2019, there's a mistake because they just carried over the information from the 2015 without updating the wording because the system functions the same way:

Sure, but they also changed to the same engine in a bunch of vehicles around that time too.

It certainly was.

Nothing you mentioned is synonymous with a new generation. Sure, there were a lot of changes as it was heavily updated. But you're pointing out a small number of very large changes, when really what makes a new generation is a large number of small changes in conjunction with any number of large changes.

Case study: Is this a 2005 Tacoma or a 2021 Tacoma? If it was a new generation, you'd be able to answer that question way, way quicker:


Case study: Which one is the 2012 Tacoma, and which one is the 2021 Tacoma? Sure there are some small differences, but I dunno.


Case study: 2014 Lexus IS vs. 2022, which are accepted to be the same generation (note that they do not share the same engine, transmission, safety systems, or interior tech packages). The suspension isn't even swappable, and the 2014 uses lug nuts while the 2021 uses bolts because the hubs were updated. Additionally, the doors wouldn't swap between these two like they do on the Tacoma, though I suspect the roof would:




Case study: 2013 Tundra vs. 2014, which are accepted to be the same generation:


Case study: 1984 Land Cruiser vs 2021, generally considered to be the same generation. These do not share the same engine, transmission, axles, suspension, bolt pattern, interior, airbags, technology, or electronics:



One of the nicest things about comparing the 2005 Tacoma and 2021 Tacoma is that they share the same parts catalog. Not only that, they share the same chassis codes, and frame number sequences. There's a reason why 2016 VIN's didn't start at 1 (or some other low number), the TRN245 and TRN265 frame numbers just kept counting up from where the 2015 model year left off.

Toyota didn't even use the same catalog between the 1988 and 1989 Supra:



I could go on, but the “3rd Generation” term is now used quite extensively. To be honest, I more or less gave up on this argument about 5 years ago. It is really only relevant in this thread because it is applicable to the timeline for when the next actual full model change can or may happen, and that there has not been a full model change for the Tacoma since the 2005 model in late 2004... which is a while ago.

Jeff

 

Thank you for the effort you put into this post. I respectfully disagree, but I appreciate your compelling arguments.

 

Ice cube's chance in hell they bring a turbodiesel v6 to North America for the taco but it would be pretty sweet. Hybrid would be pretty awesome though, imagine being able to run a fridge all the time without needing to worry about a dual battery setup or killing your starter.

 

Really?! Have you seen the Frontier?

 

Thanks, haha. To be honest I was starting to get carried away so I just stopped. That said, whichever way you think of it, it’s interesting stuff, and trying to define what is and isn’t a new generation can be murky waters. Some manufacturers take an extremely evolutionary approach to their design.

Take a look at the Ford Ranger for instance, the “new generation” in 1992 was just the exterior that got updated, it still had the same interior and most everything else for another couple of years. They just kind of updated one thing at a time for about 20 years, overlapping the same stuff. So in many ways it was all the same.

In the past Toyota didn’t often do these types of major updates to existing platforms so it was a lot easier to define when a generation change occurred. It would likely be of use to have another word to describe them.

Like I would call the 2005 to 2021 Tacoma the same generation, with minor revisions happening in 2009 and 2012 and a major revision happening in 2016, followed by a minor revision in 2020, and additional minor/major updates at model year changes and running production changes throughout. But if you want less ambiguity, adding another term in there might make it a bit easier:

2005-2008: Generation 2, Mark 1, Revision 1
2009-2011: Generation 2, Mark 1, Revision 2
2012-2015: Generation 2, Mark 1, Revision 3
2016-2019: Generation 2, Mark 2, Revision 1
2020-2021: Generation 2, Mark 2, Revision 2

Oh here I am getting carried away again.

Jeff

PS: It was a 2021 Tacoma in the first study in my last post. Different door handle.

 

I was only talking about Toyotas, haha.

Jeff