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5100's vs stock TRD Off Road Bilstein's

Discussion in 'Suspension' started by Good351, Apr 27, 2009.

  1. Apr 27, 2009 at 2:57 PM
    #1
    Good351

    Good351 [OP] Well-Known Member

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    How different are the 5100's compared to the stock TRD Off Road Bilstein's? Do they give you a softer ride? Firmer ride?

    I'm looking to get the 5100's front and rear...Front set at .85 or 1.75 wich ever levels out the truck with a tsb rear leaf.

    What I want is to maintain the stock ride quality, if not make it softer to soak up potholes and washboard better. Is that possible?
     
  2. Apr 27, 2009 at 2:58 PM
    #2
    tacoskim

    tacoskim Tuned By Gadget

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    great set up for its price!! and definitely better than the trd billies
     
  3. Apr 27, 2009 at 3:14 PM
    #3
    wormhole7

    wormhole7 Well-Known Member

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    Leather, Suspension TSB, Billy 5100's up front set at .85, Eaton Posi LSD,Grillcraft Black Mesh Grills,Aires Bull Bar,Black Low Profile Narrow Toybox,Black Headlight Mod,Black Tail lights ,USA Spec,Ipod, PopnLock,Bed Mat,Bug Sheild,Vent Visors, Weathertec Liners,Radar,Nuvi 760,Dog Ramp,Convex Mirrors, Roof Rack, Tint, Borla exhaust, Borla Intake, OBX pedals, Home Link Auto Dimming Mirror with remote, 20" Factory Wheels, Factory Tube Steps
    Good question, I'd like to know the same thing.
    My guess is that since you will be pre-loading the factory spring
    to raise the 5100's that the ride would then become "stiffer". The more
    the lift, the more the pre-load, but I don't know yet. Hopefully the dampening
    on the 5100's will compensate for the pre-loaded springs.
    I have a pair on the counter waiting to replace my 1.25 spacer's on stock
    Billy's. I may wait to have them installed together with the camburg uca's that
    I am considering at the moment as well.
     
  4. Apr 28, 2009 at 5:06 AM
    #4
    thenrie

    thenrie Well-Known Member

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    2000 Tacoma, SR5, TRD, 2.7L (LEV), 4wd, 5sp m
    Magnaflow cat and cat-back exhaust, AFE Stage 2 cold-air intake system, 2.5" lift via Skyjacker leaf packs, Bilstein 5100s.
    Pre-load? Your pickup sits on top of the springs. Springs is springs. The shocks and lift kits only change where your pickup sits on top of the springs, they don't make the truck body heavier and they don't restrict the spring from doing its action. The lift may change the geometry a bit, which may change the alignment and maybe the leverage on the springs a little, which may affect the ride, but they don't add any weight. The only way to "pre-load" the springs is to mechanically limit their upward travel by a strap or something, or by adding weight to the pickup. If your shocks are "pre-loading" your springs, they are too short. The only way to change the spring rate is to change the springs, by replacing them with softer or stiffer springs, or by actually cutting the spring itself.

    I have read this comment on several threads about lifts, but it is mechanically non-sensical. Regardless of any lift, your spring will go all the way up to the top of its lifting capacity, unless you mechanically limit it. The heavier your pickup is loaded, the shorter the spring will be at the top of its travel, but that has nothing to do with lifts or shocks. It has to do with weight. :)
     
  5. Apr 28, 2009 at 5:27 AM
    #5
    chris4x4

    chris4x4 With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. Moderator

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    WRONG.


    The springs are "Captive". They are Pre loaded to achieve lift. Preloading alters/increases the spring rate, thus lifting the vehicle.

    OP, The 5100's hold more than 2 times the oil than the TRD shocks. They are also valved better (255/70), where as the TRD Bilstiens have a generic valveing.
     
  6. Apr 28, 2009 at 7:37 AM
    #6
    thenrie

    thenrie Well-Known Member

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    Magnaflow cat and cat-back exhaust, AFE Stage 2 cold-air intake system, 2.5" lift via Skyjacker leaf packs, Bilstein 5100s.
    Chris, I know you are the lift expert, so I'm asking. I still don't understand why pre-load would cause a stiffer ride. It just doesn't make sense mechanically to me. I am not arguing. This is an honest inquiry, since I am about to install 5100s on my pickup. It seems to me that if you have a spring that stands 6 inches tall under load, and you add a spacer on top of it, the spring still stands 6" tall under load. The only effect is that the load sits higher because of the spacer.

    I know the front springs are "captive" and that they need to be "pre-loaded" to install them on the shock, meaning they are compressed a little to allow you to mount them on the shock, but that is before the load of the pickup is on them. If the loaded height of the spring (once it is installed and the weight of the pickup is on it) is shorter after the lift is installed than before, that would indicate to me that the lift exceeds the suspension's mechanical travel limitations (ie the ball angle exceeded, shock too short, or the adjustment ring being set too low on the adjustable shock), causing the spring to be compressed. If the spring height (not truck height) after installation and with the truck sitting back on all fours is the same height as the spring height before the lift, then "pre-load" is only a factor of mounting and installation and has absolutely no effect on the loaded spring. Am I wrong?

    I know it takes more and more weight to compress a spring farther and farther. That is called a spring "rate". Changing a spring's rate is different. You have to actually change the spring to do that. That's why we have stiffer springs and softer springs. A softer spring may not reach the same stiffness as a stock spring until it reaches half compression height, whereas a stiffer spring may be as stiff at full height as a stock spring at 1/2 compression, but each spring's "rate" does not change as it is compressed. It gets stiffer as it is compressed, but does so at the rate at which it was designed. This may be splitting hairs, though. We all know a spring gets stiffer as it gets compressed.

    As far as I can see, if my springs are shorter after I install a spacer or adjustable-lift shock (such as a Bil 5100 or similar), then either my pickup is now heavier, or I have exceeded the limits of my suspension to handle the lift, causing my springs to be compressed further. Either way I am nullifying some lift if my springs are shorter after the lift. I know that many serious off-roaders purposely limit their upward suspension travel by straps or stops, to avoid breakage of suspension parts when the suspension suddenly becomes unloaded (getting air). This would allow them to heavily pre-load their springs, effectively making them stiffer, but then their suspension would always be hitting the stops. That is not good. For most of us, using lift kits in our Tacomas, this is not an issue and the springs are not pre-loaded more than what the weight of the truck puts on them.

    What am I missing in all this?
     
  7. Apr 28, 2009 at 8:28 AM
    #7
    ELKAHOLIC

    ELKAHOLIC Well-Known Member

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    I will not get as deep into this as y'all as I dont know much about coils. BUT I just put my 5100s on yesterday. My thinking was that coils like the ome 884s with the 5100s set at 0 would ride better than compressed stock coils and 5100s set at 1.75. BUT after much debate I decided to try the 5100s set at 1.75 with stock coils first. 1st the ride is great (softer than stock) :D I am very supprised but not too soft. I now think that they would be fine at 2.5" 2nd with the 5100s set at 1.75". My truck is sitting perfect for me. I'm 1/2"- 3/4" higher in the rear than the front. Yes I do have rear tsb. I highly recomend the 5100s, I am shocked (parden the phun) If I can figure out how to get the pics. up on the computer I will post them today.:D
     
  8. Apr 28, 2009 at 8:36 AM
    #8
    chris4x4

    chris4x4 With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. Moderator

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    You have the right idea. Only thing your missing is that, Lets say the Tacoma is sitting at 35" from ground to bottom of fender, with a spring that has a rate of 540# per inch. Increaseing the spring rate to 650# per inch is now going to push the truck up higher. It wont sag the springs as much, therfore give lift. Truck is not heavier, but the spring force puching the truck UP is greater, giveing lift. Inserting a Preload spacer into the spring pack increases the spring rate. Preloading a spring Does make it shoter, which is why many people recomend getting a new coil of a higher rate, and/or longer.
     
  9. Apr 28, 2009 at 1:10 PM
    #9
    Good351

    Good351 [OP] Well-Known Member

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    I'm interested to see how your swap turns out, keep us posted!

    ELKAHOLIC,
    Thanks for your input, very usefull info.
     
  10. Apr 28, 2009 at 1:16 PM
    #10
    ELKAHOLIC

    ELKAHOLIC Well-Known Member

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    yea, I'm very happy I saved the $ and did'nt get the coils. Now if and when I go higher I'll get the toytec adj. coil overs that will work with the 5100s that I all ready have. :D
     
  11. Apr 29, 2009 at 5:42 AM
    #11
    thenrie

    thenrie Well-Known Member

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    Magnaflow cat and cat-back exhaust, AFE Stage 2 cold-air intake system, 2.5" lift via Skyjacker leaf packs, Bilstein 5100s.
    Thanks, Chris. One more question, though. In your last line, you mentioned that spacers shorten the springs (pre-load), making them stiffer, that makes sense to me. My question is whether the spring is shorter after the unit is back on the truck with the truck's weight on it, than it was on the truck before the lift spacer was installed. I would think that all else being equal, once the weight of the pickup is back on the springs, they would still come out the same height as before, but the pickup would sit higher because the pickup is sitting on top of the spacer, which is on top of the spring. If the springs are shorter after the weight of the pickup is back on them, then I am losing some lift (ie, 2.5" lift spacer, less 1" shorter spring height, equals 1.5" of effective lift). If that is the case (I have never measured any before and after installation), then I can see where that would stiffen the ride. Is that, in fact, what happens? If so, if one orders a specific lift spacer, should he expect something less than the height of the lift spacer, once it is installed?

    Here is my trouble (not to hijack the thread, sorry). I installed a set of leaf packs with a 2.5" lift built in (Bilstein 5100 rear shocks). The results actually gave me nearly 4" of lift, since my original springs were badly sagged. So, I have ordered B-5100s for the front and am planning to set them at 2.5" (with a diff drop spacer kit) to level the truck back out (looks like a stink bug right now). So, will I get pretty close to 2.5" or will it be less?
     
  12. Apr 29, 2009 at 6:06 AM
    #12
    chris4x4

    chris4x4 With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. Moderator

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    Your not quite understanding the spring thing, and Im not sure how to better explain it. Maybe someone on here can make it more clear. The 5100's will give 2.5" lift, depending on the condition of your OEM springs. As your leaf springs were shot, there is a good chance your coils are worn too. May want to consider replaceing them with an OME 880 or 881 spring.
     
  13. Apr 29, 2009 at 6:18 AM
    #13
    T@co_Pr3runn3r

    T@co_Pr3runn3r XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

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    On 5100s you're moving the spring perch up which compresses the spring more before it's on the truck. It's compressed more so the weight of the truck cannot compress it as far so you get lift. The shock assembly is same length as factory, ball joint movement range same. When you add spacers it elongates the shock assembly giving lift but also decreases ball joint movement range which can become issue. How else can you say it?
     
  14. Apr 29, 2009 at 6:19 AM
    #14
    ELKAHOLIC

    ELKAHOLIC Well-Known Member

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    just to let you know, I set mine at 1.75" and got about 1.5"
     
  15. Apr 29, 2009 at 6:20 AM
    #15
    chris4x4

    chris4x4 With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. Moderator

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    Thank you. Top Plate spacers lengthen the shock/spring combo. Pre Load spacers keep it the same length.....great...now I created more confusion...
     
  16. Apr 29, 2009 at 6:20 AM
    #16
    T@co_Pr3runn3r

    T@co_Pr3runn3r XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

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    Glad I set mine to max then. Installing on truck this weekend. Hoping for at least 2"...........
     
  17. Apr 29, 2009 at 6:24 AM
    #17
    ELKAHOLIC

    ELKAHOLIC Well-Known Member

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    you should .Also it seems that it lowered my rear 3/8"
     
  18. Apr 29, 2009 at 6:44 AM
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    T@co_Pr3runn3r

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    Going with Toytec 1.5 TSB AAL outback, hoping for levelish 1" higher in back result. But my sad ass 3 leafs look level to slightly reversed arched so may get a bit more in back with AAL, only Saturday will tell. Install date. Also will be using Toytec leveling spacer on driver side front if still lower than passenger side but will need longer studs for that side so it may be awhile to get to that.
     
  19. Apr 29, 2009 at 7:02 AM
    #19
    wormhole7

    wormhole7 Well-Known Member

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    I will offer my opinion on the difference and post a pic or two when I get it done.

    Thanks all for the input.
     
  20. Apr 29, 2009 at 7:21 AM
    #20
    Joe B

    Joe B Well-Known Member

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    I love the ride diference and better handling.
    A bit firmer on certain kinds of bumps but the overall ride is greatly improved to me.
    .85" seems to work well with the tsb springs.
    Still have a bit of a rake but expect the tsb springs to settle a little for a less rake.
    The 1'4" top plate from Toyotec did the job well for the Tacoma lean too.
     
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