1. Welcome to Tacoma World!

    You are currently viewing as a guest! To get full-access, you need to register for a FREE account.

    As a registered member, you’ll be able to:
    • Participate in all Tacoma discussion topics
    • Communicate privately with other Tacoma owners from around the world
    • Post your own photos in our Members Gallery
    • Access all special features of the site

6 speed shenanigans. RA60F swap to RC62F

Discussion in 'Technical Chat' started by BillDaCat8, Jan 1, 2021.

  1. Jan 14, 2021 at 5:00 PM
    #81
    Jeff Lange

    Jeff Lange Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2015
    Member:
    #155616
    Messages:
    1,651
    Edmonton, AB
    Vehicle:
    '86 AE86, '05 NCP13, '11 GSE21
    Following along, the primary inertial force-induced drag caused by the clutch disc spinning will exist with or without a pilot bearing, so any significant difference in drag would more or less require an imbalance, either from the clutch disc's balance or due to bending/displacement in the input shaft due to gravity and bearing play. The extra drag would be experienced due to the added load causing additional friction in the input shaft bearings.

    So the question becomes, how much displacement does the input shaft spline see due to gravity causing bending and bearing displacement, and is there a concern related to the the frequency of the vibration caused by that bending, i.e. is it near resonance so as to increase or not, and is it being cancelled and/or damped in some way.

    With a short enough input shaft, the displacement due to bending will be small, and so the amplitude of any induced vibration will also be small. With correct bearing support, likewise. This is why you will see pilot bearings added to long external input shafts, even if they are fully supported (like the Aisin transmission Porsche uses, which in addition to being long also has a small necked portion to clear the differential, increasing the effective length), and also why transmissions without fully supported input shafts have pilot bearings.

    Will the spinning clutch disc increase drag on a cantilevered input shaft? Yes. Is it significant though?

    I was curious how much extra bending the shaft would see, the clutch disc sits approximately 145 mm from the input shaft bearing in the RC62F. The clutch disc weighs about 1.8 kg, the input shaft is steel and approximately 28 mm in diameter. The force would cause a deflection of the input shaft of approximately 0.003 mm. It's going to introduce some radial dynamic imbalance, but I would question whether the deflection would be enough to have an appreciable increase in moment of inertia or cause any sort of noticeable decrease in synchro life.

    Without knowing or estimating the pressure angle and other dimensions, it's safe to say these forces are probably much higher than that of the weight of the clutch disc, the question of front bearing misalignment support would then need to be asked.

    Everything you said is true of course, and a pilot bearing would definitely increase support on the shaft, reducing bending, some vibration, and some radial loading on the clutch hub. My question would still be is any of that loading, bending, and vibration an issue? Hypothetically it could be, depending on magnitude, but enough that a pilot bearing would improve shift quality, increase strength and shift quality in a statistically significant way? I retain a health skepticism.

    Pilot bearings on fully supported input shafts are uncommon enough that I would almost say they don't exist. It feels like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

    All that said, it's certainly not going to hurt anything by adding one, though I suspect any improvement aside from vibration would be hard to quantify empirically.

    Jeff
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2021
  2. Jan 14, 2021 at 6:23 PM
    #82
    Jowett

    Jowett Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2016
    Member:
    #186182
    Messages:
    936
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Brian
    North Adams, MA
    Lol, I knew you would supply an excellent argument! I'll research further, then try gather up some specs in an attempt to prove some benefits here. We can try to calculate, but testing holds the most value for me... if only there was an easy way to install a dial indicator on the tip of that input shaft as it's running down the street fully loaded.

    Note that the Porsche unit has a 3rd bearing between the necked down section and pilot, for a total of four bearings supporting that shaft. When the Porsche trans goes past the torque limit, 4th gear on the main shaft pushes away from the counter/output and splits the case.
     
    Jeff Lange likes this.
  3. Jan 16, 2021 at 4:08 PM
    #83
    BillDaCat8

    BillDaCat8 [OP] Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2017
    Member:
    #222348
    Messages:
    1,615
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Jake
    PHX
    Vehicle:
    07 4x4 Access Cab M/T
    I got a Mickey Mouse antenna ball. Does that count?
    Well, that was fun. Decided to do this job at home. Been a while since I did work like this while lying on my back. I don’t miss it.

    2D5A8ADF-6D03-40DB-9562-AE68010651DC.jpg
    EE630C77-1A02-4F53-B3AF-4820242E98DD.jpg
    E449A7B1-96A2-4EBD-83CB-1DDE501C72A7.jpg


    UPS truck showed up while I was in the driveway working. Giggity.

    6DC3CA02-68CB-477F-9351-08FB9F745542.jpg

    EDIT: This release bearing was returned and traded for a different unit that suited the piston I ended up choosing. See the other thread.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2021
  4. Jan 16, 2021 at 4:13 PM
    #84
    BillDaCat8

    BillDaCat8 [OP] Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2017
    Member:
    #222348
    Messages:
    1,615
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Jake
    PHX
    Vehicle:
    07 4x4 Access Cab M/T
    I got a Mickey Mouse antenna ball. Does that count?
    Important measurement here.

    3086D5E3-9126-4A1B-9B20-7F05464CBBDF.jpg
    1D430245-34AB-4681-B6C0-756CD4F53081.jpg
     
    Torspd, rheath08, samiam and 3 others like this.
  5. Jan 19, 2021 at 7:34 PM
    #85
    BillDaCat8

    BillDaCat8 [OP] Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2017
    Member:
    #222348
    Messages:
    1,615
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Jake
    PHX
    Vehicle:
    07 4x4 Access Cab M/T
    I got a Mickey Mouse antenna ball. Does that count?
    Finally got these two together in the same place. I’m actually pretty stoked. This thing is basically bolt up. Hardware from xmember to insulator went from M8 to M10. But, holes in the xmember are large enough. No problem there. Same mounting pattern. Same height to center of output sleeve. Aside from the 24mm transmission length difference necessitating an abbreviated rear propeller shaft and a lengthened front, it’s a gimme. Yes, the shifter is further back. But, not by too far (46mm) I’ve got a couple of ideas on how to deal with that.

    1F500B87-2773-4545-8361-FF629EACFFD5.jpg
    FC65B115-48DF-4BBE-B93F-885F14C3AF4B.jpg

    233E0EDE-F5D2-4206-A16D-EA967CCC6666.jpg

    A562B1EB-1DC2-48B8-823C-1014E7D26CE6.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
  6. Jan 24, 2021 at 12:38 PM
    #86
    TacoMods

    TacoMods Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2018
    Member:
    #270596
    Messages:
    7
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Randall
    PA
    Vehicle:
    '13 Silver access TRD Sport 6-speed
    3" lift with 275/70r17 KO2's, Core Hurst short throw. URD Stage 2 clutch.
    Seems I'm a touch late finding this thread as I just got a good used ra60 and put out for the CM hydro bearing back in December.
    That said something occurs to me regarding the drive shafts. If the truck is lifted then the inch of offset gained on the rear shaft may be of no consequence. As for the front a properly made spacer as mentioned indeed seems a viable solution.
    Lastly the convo on pilots and the moments of force that can occur was a pleasant read. Thanks for that.
     
  7. Jan 24, 2021 at 7:54 PM
    #87
    rheath08

    rheath08 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2016
    Member:
    #202554
    Messages:
    888
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Russell
    Bakersfield, CA
    Vehicle:
    2006 Tacoma pre-runner converted 4x4 supercharged
    That is not correct. You will still need the driveshaft modified. It is due to the length change is before the carrier bearing. One inch after the bearing would have been ok.
     
    BillDaCat8 [OP] likes this.
  8. Jan 25, 2021 at 7:55 AM
    #88
    BillDaCat8

    BillDaCat8 [OP] Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2017
    Member:
    #222348
    Messages:
    1,615
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Jake
    PHX
    Vehicle:
    07 4x4 Access Cab M/T
    I got a Mickey Mouse antenna ball. Does that count?
    I’ve got the day off today. So, will be running around a bit. Dropping off flywheel and the driveshaft (different shops) to be surfaced and shortened. Gonna throw in new ujoints for peace-of-mind as well.

    Got the TO bearing set up on the Tilton piston yesterday as well. A few pics of that in the other thread if anyone is interested.

    New Spec 3+ clutch is in the mail.

    Need to order up front shaft spacer today as well.

    The Core shifter is very tempting. I’ve been talking with Chris there about it. I think I’ll wait to get the trans in and bolted up before I order that up tho. I want to see where it all sits first.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
    Torspd, TodayWasTHeDaY and rheath08 like this.
  9. Jan 25, 2021 at 8:10 AM
    #89
    Jowett

    Jowett Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2016
    Member:
    #186182
    Messages:
    936
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Brian
    North Adams, MA
    Would the front drive shaft from a 16+ work? Those must be a dime a dozen.
     
    BillDaCat8 [OP] and JustDSM like this.
  10. Jan 25, 2021 at 8:19 AM
    #90
    Jowett

    Jowett Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2016
    Member:
    #186182
    Messages:
    936
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Brian
    North Adams, MA
    I'm not saying it's correct, but The front drive shaft from the automatic 2005 - 2015 cross references (on car-part.com) to the 2016+ 6speed manual trucks.
     
    rheath08 likes this.
  11. Jan 25, 2021 at 8:23 AM
    #91
    JustDSM

    JustDSM Oderint Dum Metuant

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2015
    Member:
    #146525
    Messages:
    1,822
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Justin
    Ennis, TX
    Vehicle:
    '15 Access Cab V6/6spd TRD OR
    Does the transfer case have a different casting between the 2nd/3rd trucks? Or the flange(s) on the pinion or output shaft of the TC differ making up the difference in length of the trans ultimately making the driveshafts cross compatible? Spit-balling here..
     
    BillDaCat8 [OP] likes this.
  12. Jan 25, 2021 at 8:25 AM
    #92
    wrmathis

    wrmathis Dark Lord of the Sith

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2008
    Member:
    #9126
    Messages:
    8,641
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Ryan
    Lives: Yelm WA/Home: Leesburg, GA
    Vehicle:
    2006 Tacoma TRD OR 4x4
    parts and stuff
    what is the part circled in red called? the connector part on mine has been busted for years and it has never come loose to recently. pushed it back in but kinda want to replace it. i know its a sensor just not sure what its called or part number. i know it deals with the reverse signal since i was losing the back up camera and the reverse beep.

    A562B1EB-1DC2-48B8-823C-1014E7D26CE6.jpg
     
  13. Jan 25, 2021 at 8:26 AM
    #93
    wrmathis

    wrmathis Dark Lord of the Sith

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2008
    Member:
    #9126
    Messages:
    8,641
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Ryan
    Lives: Yelm WA/Home: Leesburg, GA
    Vehicle:
    2006 Tacoma TRD OR 4x4
    parts and stuff
    my guess is there is enough slip in the slip joint for it to work
     
    JustDSM likes this.
  14. Jan 25, 2021 at 8:27 AM
    #94
    rheath08

    rheath08 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2016
    Member:
    #202554
    Messages:
    888
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Russell
    Bakersfield, CA
    Vehicle:
    2006 Tacoma pre-runner converted 4x4 supercharged
    2ND GEN RA60 IS 1" SHORTER THAT THE A750F TRANS. THE RC62 IN THE THIRD GENS IS 1" LONGER THAN THE RA60. I THINK JAKE HAD THE MASURMENTS IN HIS OTHER THREAD. I BELEAVE THE BOLT PATTERNS AND DEMENTIONS OF THE TRANSFER CASES ARE THE SAME.
    SORRY FOR CAPS. I USE THEM ALL DAY AT WORK.
     
    TodayWasTHeDaY, JustDSM and Jowett like this.
  15. Jan 25, 2021 at 8:27 AM
    #95
    Jowett

    Jowett Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2016
    Member:
    #186182
    Messages:
    936
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Brian
    North Adams, MA
    Edit- rheath08 beat me to it. My guess is the 2nd gen 5 speed auto has the same length as the RC62F 6 speed manual.
     
    JustDSM and rheath08 like this.
  16. Jan 25, 2021 at 8:32 AM
    #96
    wrmathis

    wrmathis Dark Lord of the Sith

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2008
    Member:
    #9126
    Messages:
    8,641
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Ryan
    Lives: Yelm WA/Home: Leesburg, GA
    Vehicle:
    2006 Tacoma TRD OR 4x4
    parts and stuff
    oh yeah that makes since then. the RC6x = A750f in terms of length.
     
    rheath08 likes this.
  17. Jan 25, 2021 at 9:01 AM
    #97
    BillDaCat8

    BillDaCat8 [OP] Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2017
    Member:
    #222348
    Messages:
    1,615
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Jake
    PHX
    Vehicle:
    07 4x4 Access Cab M/T
    I got a Mickey Mouse antenna ball. Does that count?
    It may. I haven’t had a third gen m/t truck in person yet to measure. Is yours easily accessible?
     
  18. Jan 25, 2021 at 9:07 AM
    #98
    BillDaCat8

    BillDaCat8 [OP] Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2017
    Member:
    #222348
    Messages:
    1,615
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Jake
    PHX
    Vehicle:
    07 4x4 Access Cab M/T
    I got a Mickey Mouse antenna ball. Does that count?
    Im not sure on the third gen transfer case. I’m using my original 2nd gen unit. Adapting the third gen unit to my truck looked like more trouble than it was worth.
     
    JustDSM likes this.
  19. Jan 25, 2021 at 9:10 AM
    #99
    JustDSM

    JustDSM Oderint Dum Metuant

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2015
    Member:
    #146525
    Messages:
    1,822
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Justin
    Ennis, TX
    Vehicle:
    '15 Access Cab V6/6spd TRD OR
    My comments were more "ideas" that could explain why the 2nd and 3rd gen use the same front shaft. I wouldn't bother with the trouble of swapping the TC either.
     
    BillDaCat8 [OP] likes this.
  20. Jan 25, 2021 at 9:11 AM
    #100
    BillDaCat8

    BillDaCat8 [OP] Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2017
    Member:
    #222348
    Messages:
    1,615
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Jake
    PHX
    Vehicle:
    07 4x4 Access Cab M/T
    I got a Mickey Mouse antenna ball. Does that count?
    That’s the reverse switch all right. I have yet to see if I can simply swap it out in lieu of the third gen wired switch. If so, that’s super easy obviously. If not, I already have a pigtail ready to make the third gen switch work.
     

Products Discussed in

To Top