ABS issues on icy roads and tire size

Well said.

Even as I look at my 'problem definition' above, there are too many variables left undefined. Snow and ice at a lower temperature could provide increased traction compared to at a higher temperature. ABS firmware might be different between different vehicles and different dates. Tires might be different. And on and on. We have each had different personal experiences.

Do we all agree that -- on sand -- braking distance with ABS can actually be worse than braking distance without ABS? And can we agree that this is further supported by the number of people who gladly disable ABS for offroading on sand?

If so, do we all agree that there are likely other conditions where breaking distance with ABS can be worse than breaking distance without ABS?

If so, then increased breaking distance downhill on snow and ice doesn't seem to be outside of possibility -- given certain variables?

There is no reason we can find for criticizing people who claim to have experienced it. Nor is there reason we can find for criticizing people who claim not to have experienced it. Given the vast number of variables, I don't imagine that either group can be criticized for their experieneces.

 

Good tires reduce the problem significantly. As always, driving the appropriate speed and slowing down in anticipation of your stop is assumed. Having a manual, I will often drive in 4WD when it's icy just so my downshifting is more effective (but, MPG!).

I drive with a bunch of weight (http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/2nd-gen-tacomas/357596-what-do-you-carry-your-truck-bed-2.html) in the back, plus topper and rotate 3 sets of wheels throughout the year to keep fresh winter tires on. I still have ABS issues...

 

I believe that this is only the case for the TRD Offroads with ATRAC. He has an '07 and ATRAC is super rare in the Pre-09's.

But this might rule me out. I have an '05 with ATRAC and as I said before no issues here. vvv

Sand is a very poor example for testing ABS... My stopping power in the sand is amazing with the ABS off. When I slam on the brakes in the sand and lock the tires up sand starts building up in front of my tires slowing me down rapidly! I am always blown away how quick I can stop in sand.

With ABS you won't build up those berms in front of the tires since the tires will roll over them.

 

You can't possibly know that sand is a poor example without studying a massive number of variables and conditions. Besides, I can imagine that snow might act in a similar way to sand under some conditions.

Anyway, that wasn't my point.

 

Yeah but.... Only if you have ATRAC on?

 

Yeah, haha. I guess my point was that sand is a case where ABS will perform worse than non-ABS 95% of the time or so. Snow could act like that, but I think you would have to be in snow so deep you are driving up on top of it and even then packed snow turns to ice under your tires pretty easy.

You basically said it, but I was just pointing out that sand is not comparable to ice at all in terms of braking.

Well it isn't going to be ATRAC itself that causes the difference. TRD Offroads equipped with ATRAC have a different brake module thing and probably coding in the ECU as well causing the 2 to perform differently during hard braking (still a maybe there though, braking could act the same for all I know).

Taco's equipped with ATRAC do not have the brake module on the passenger fenderwell. It is integrated into the master cylinder/brake booster area on the driver's side fenderwell. This brake module gives the ABS system individual independent control over each tire allowing the ATRAC to perform as marketed.

Maybe like the other guy mentioned; with the TRD Offroads having a more complex braking system this bug is not exposed as easily in these models or they have an entirely different coding without the bug present

I'm not familiar enough with the specifics of the ABS system so I can't really say one way or another; just some possibilities as to why some people experience it and some don't.

 

I know because of my a track like mentioned above that there is a really really slight delay when you push the brakes in and you can actually feel the compression of the hydraulics when its happening

 

We all know that ABS is designed to prevent any tire from locking up so that you can steer the vehicle around an accident vice becoming a participant in said accident.

How does the ABS System know that the wheels are locking up?
The Wheel Sensors that feedback to the ABS Controller, correct.

But keep in mind that what happens in the controller is that it compares each wheel to the other three to determine the difference and pulses the locking wheel. With that out of the way how would or could it know the difference between being stopped 0 MPH and all four wheels locking up at the same time? It cannot tell the difference, either condition will look the same to the ABS Controller. This is what I think is causing the issue, shitty snow tires or ice that allows all four wheels to lock and slide. The ABS Controller registers that the vehicle is stopped and doesn't engage and the slide continues.

I know from my younger days ( before ABS ) when you are sliding on ice it feels like you are gaining speed.

Food for thought.

 

I live in the south and don't much worry about shitty ABS in the Snow!

 

I can't believe I'm giving input on and ABS thread on TW again, but at least it's in reply to an intelligent person. First of all, ABS systems have logic in the programming that recognizes that the vehicle cannot stop instantaneously, and therefore will modulate all wheels of brakes in the situation you describe.

Second, in all the instances I've had ABS hypersensitivity issues and the loss of braking ability (when traction allowed for much more) the ABS pump was running and the brakes were being modulated.

 

^^^ lol.
Saved.

 

How about you just put a set of snow tires in October and then take them off at the beginning of April. That seems to generally work for most people . No need to run them only when snow is on the ground.

If you don't want to pay for snow tires just say so. No need to make up such a silly excuse.

 

The only cost of snow tires is the initial investment. They'll last you multiple years and bail your ass out next time your driving to fast for the conditions and your ABS "fails". Don't act like the 1 hour to put them on is a real pain in the ass lol.

As for the looks, size, and mud, use a studded set of Toyo C/T. That's what I use on my work truck, they look sick and work great in the mud that often follows the snow.

 

This lol. I don't know why some people get so upset so fast. Clearly this guy doesn't want to pay for snow tires. That's fine. But he should say so and not act like it's Toyota's fault all seasons don't cut it on pure ice.

Drive for the conditions, including your tires, as has been said multiple times on these threads.

 

No need to get mad ?

Okay before this gets off the rails, like the other threads, lets just go with a few quick facts. Snow tires are an expensive initial investment. I get that. You buy FJ steelies (about $400), Toyo C/T (you need a M/T and they're it, about $1000), and you stud them (which my local shop will do for me for under $100). So yes, it's $1500, but then you will double the amount of time your normal set of tires will last. So at the end of the day your true costs are the $400 steelies. You just have to budget wisely to get there. If you own a $15,000 you can probably save enough to buy tires.

Changing tires and rims isn't that hard. I'm not going to get into insulting you because you insult me. I do my own work, and no I don't have a bunch of money or a tire barn. I just spend my money wisely. This year I bought new snows for the wife and my work truck. Next year the Tacoma will get them when I have the money. I'll save my pennies and get it done because I realize the advantage of being on the best rubber for the salutation should shit hit the fan.

As for your ABS problems I can understand the poop in the pants effect. I've had a few close calls myself in other situations. If you don't want to put on snows no one is forcing you to do (except in some areas), all I'm saying is that it could help you out. I have said many times, there is something clearly wrong with some of Toyota's ABS systems, but even if your ABS was working perfectly like mine I'd still recommend snow tires. You'll stop twice as fast and have way better maneuverability. Don't take my word for it. There's literally hundreds of websites, youtube videos, and testimonials that can help you understand the value of a goods now tire.

Anyways let's get back to topic and try to keep the emotional banter out of it (from both of us).

 

Again...

No need to get mad ?

Okay before this gets off the rails, like the other threads, lets just go with a few quick facts. Snow tires are an expensive initial investment. I get that. You buy FJ steelies (about $400), Toyo C/T (you need a M/T and they're it, about $1000), and you stud them (which my local shop will do for me for under $100). So yes, it's $1500, but then you will double the amount of time your normal set of tires will last. So at the end of the day your true costs are the $400 steelies. You just have to budget wisely to get there. If you own a $15,000 truck you can probably save enough to buy tires.

Changing tires and rims isn't that hard. I'm not going to get into insulting you because you insult me. I do my own work, and no I don't have a bunch of money or a tire barn. I just spend my money wisely. This year I bought new snows for the wife and my work truck. Next year the Tacoma will get them when I have the money. I'll save my pennies and get it done because I realize the advantage of being on the best rubber for the salutation should shit hit the fan.

As for your ABS problems I can understand the poop in the pants effect. I've had a few close calls myself in other situations. If you don't want to put on snows no one is forcing you to do (except in some areas), all I'm saying is that it could help you out. I have said many times, there is something clearly wrong with some of Toyota's ABS systems, but even if your ABS was working perfectly like mine I'd still recommend snow tires. You'll stop twice as fast and have way better maneuverability. Don't take my word for it. There's literally hundreds of websites, youtube videos, and testimonials that can help you understand the value of a goods now tire.

Anyways let's get back to topic and try to keep the emotional banter out of it (from both of us).

 

I'm starting to wonder if maybe the manufacturer of the ABS module/programming uses multiple sources? Anyone remember the recent recall on some of our Tacoma's for the ABS? Certain ones had different transistors that could short so they had to do a flash to prevent overheating. There was two suppliers to Toyota's supplier so it was only certain trucks that were effected. I think that could explain some of these issues. I know I had to get the recall flash, did anyone else get the recall flash yet still experience this issue?

 

All good.

Like I've said on other forums I'm just worried some kid in his early twenties will drive too fast, have a minor accident where ABS was involved, read this, blame the ABS, and disable it. Then he'll get in a serious accident and possibly kill himself or someone else because he couldn't avoid it while he was in a slide. I realize some people are experienced enough with threshold braking to get by without ABS. I also realize if you slide into an intersection where traffic is coming it could be game over. However, I also know the statistic from Transport Canada that says 90% of people will put there car into a slide/spin in a panic maneuver without ABS. I'd just like to see people do the safest thing and not disable the system unless they are absolutely sure it's not something else that is causing their issues. Even then I think the smart thing is to only disable in town where it seems to not work at all for some and turn it back on when highway driving where panic maneuvers that involve the brakes and steering are likely to happen.

 

My ABS sucked balls, hated that shit, offroad , ABS caused more collisions than it prevented, don't know how it treats you guys in the ice belt but around here, nothing but a problem....

& consider the type of ice you go over plays huge as to you having ANY kind of control regardless of tires/ABS etc;

 

Data out of Australia shows it's pretty much a wash whether ABS causes or prevents accidents. It's like a 2% change in favor of ABS, and another 2% once ABS was mandatory on all vehicles.

Edit: Here's the link, they give lots of data from other peer reviewed research so it's probably the best paper I've seen done on the subject so far:

http://www.monash.edu.au/miri/research/reports/other/racv-abs-braking-system-effectiveness.pdf

They also cover VSC, which has had a big impact on reducing roll overs.

Off road ABS is almost always useless because mud and sand tend to pile, which favors non ABS stopping big time.