ABS on this truck is dangerous...

I'm willing to believe you. I always though that ABS was created ONLY to be able to steer during panic situation. If you say that it may shorten distance on a dry pavement, possible, I never managed to activate ABS on those conditions, excepted when there are potholes near stop sign, I completely lose brakes, even at very low speeds, but it never happened that I go past stop sign, since brakes come back quickly.

During winter however.... that's another story. I can live with longer braking distance and I also adapt my driving technique according to the weather (never got any accident since first time I drove a car, 18 years), but when I go past stop sign where it should have stopped if I didn't have ABS, it's unacceptable. I mean, creeping to a stop and suddendly, no brakes. Two times was too much.

 

Of sorts; you cherry-picked a couple things and missed the larger point.

The article said that threshhold braking is going to brake faster than ABS, but ABS will brake faster than any other method (skidding, manual pulsing, or parachute ).

If you're using proper threshhold braking, your ABS is not activating, therefore it's of no consequence that it's there. This is my preferred system. Threshhold braking can be done in ice and snow.

The site also points out that modern sports cars (again, it's mostly talking about racing) are far superior than any good driver at adapting the braking to an ever-changing road condition, especially in wet conditions.

 

Are you sure you would have stopped though? I honestly couldn't say so. Usually when I've hit those spots, I wouldn't have stopped either way. I would have skidded to a stop in the same spot, thereabouts.

 

I focused on facts proven and not on opinion that $500k cars may have system better then skilled driver. Again where is the test showing that ABS can brake in shorter distance then skilled human? Both, test there showed skilled human can brake better on dry pavement, and also website acknowledges NHTSA tests that showed ABS can increase stopping distance by 22% So if Tacoma stopping distance from 60-0 is 131 feet. 22% gives you 28 feet. Two car lengths,, extra.

 

Yes. I use same spot, stopping distance is much more shorter. Before, I need to stop waaaay before because ABS would always kick-in (stop on a downhill). Never went past stop sign and I feel much safer and more in control without ABS. ABS fuse will stay out for the rest of the Winter.

When snow will be gone, I'm gonna put it back until next winter.

 

Unsubbed

On to Crom's ABS bypass thread

 

I had a 1997 GMC 3/4 ton diesel, and every once in a while the
ABS would scare me... no snow or ice here, just a wet or bumpy
road, and it would freak out and I'd lose braking power.
Tried pulling the fuse, but I didn't like the light being on...
unplugged all the wires / harnesses going into the ABS control
box, and truck was happy, no lights, I was happy, brakes worked
great, drove it 100,000 miles like that.

 

We're not comparing $500k race cars. We're comparing a 1970 sports car to a 2000 sports car.

The site absolutely said that you can stop shorter without ABS on dry pavement. It also said the vehicle's computer is generally far better at managing optimal braking in changing road conditions faster than a human is.

I went breezed through a bunch of NHTSA test reports on ABS. I don't have time to read all of it.

It said that ABS is a wash. It has little statistical overall difference in fatal crashes of ABS and non-ABS. This seems logical, as a lot of fatal accidents are the cause of physics: too much speed, too much mass, or a combination thereof.

Collision avoidance increased and there was an improvement in several non-fatal collision types. Combined with VSC, there should be a high net-improvement in collision avoidance.

In certain situations, the data said ABS can be detrimental.

Someone on an article I breezed over summed it up best, that ABS is a wash (paraphrasing): Where one guy in a SUV careens off the road and dies, a little boy with a ball playing in the street will be saved by it (pedestrian collisions went down, run-off-the-road accidents went up).

After reading through the NHTSA data, I'll buy it: Toyota could cater to more customers by installing an ABS-disable switch for off-roading. I'm not totally convinced it should be disabled on-road. ABS may help or hurt on the road--I guess pick your risk. Either you can't stop for a stop sign on an icy road and keep going out into an intersection, or you can't avoid a stopped car on the highway, swerve and spin out/roll over.

The NHTSA did find that most drivers induce a spin avoiding an obstacle (there was an avoidance test done with real drivers), which may be part of the push for it.

The best point is, drive for conditions, know the vehicle's limits and stay within them, and hope none of us get in any accidents regardless.

 

I am glad NHTSA thinks that ABS is a wash because it costs us probably good $1500 per truck . Also you can add extra few $k for all the repairs related
The fact is ABS is a failure but Bosch lobbied for it, somebody took money under the table and now nobody is willing to back off. To make matters worst now we will be forced to buy VSC/TRAC and the rest of the useless junk in our trucks. Those things are not cheap. I rather have Toyota give me better frame paint job then POS ATRAC.

Also your analogy is opposite. You are more likely to run over the boy with ball (not enough stopping distance in the city where streets are narrow and there is no place to avoid crash) then veer off the road because ABS does not lock your wheels.

You know what ABS is, its like having Air in your brake lines.

 

Good point about city streets. Some of the streets I drive on, I would pretty much have to slam into a parked car, rather than "steer" my way out of an accident.

 

Go read the NHTSA data you've been quoting. Their official reports indicate that pedestrian avoidance in real crash data has increased markedly with ABS. However, run-off-the-road incidents have increased. That's why the analogy works.

Most likely, the off-the-road incidents are because of increased stopping distance, where a driver has to choose to ditch the vehicle to avoid a collision. I don't know, just speculating.

I don't have A-TRAC, but TacomaWorld seems to love it. I agree that they could improve the brakes on the truck, but it is a truck. I'm also dismayed by the frame issues. It doesn't make sense.

My wife has a 2010 Mazda3, and the brakes are utterly incredible. I've had to do a couple full speed highway stops on the car, and it's spot-on. The computer modulates the brakes, and actually applies them harder for you when it thinks you're making a panic stop. I've never stopped that hard--controlled--in any vehicle. I've not used it in snow, my wife kind of has, and she says the traction control works extremely well. I don't think either one of us has gotten the car into ABS, but with as hard as it can stop, its braking logic is probably superior to Toyota's. It also has 4-wheel discs, which probably add to the performance.

Anyway, no sense in arguing just to argue. Having a disable for certain situations is probably prudent--but Toyota can't install one from the factory due to liability reasons. I'm not convinced it should just always be off.

 

Hello Iroc,
I think I was the original person that got this thread started because I was hoping to hear from others that might have had the same problem. Before I posted on this site I did have my tuck examined by my local Toyota dealer which cost me $80 to find out nothing. Then the ABS problem happened to me again. I contacted Toyota and they told me to take it to my local dealer again. I told them that I had already done and paid for that inspection. Their answer was take it to a different Toyota Dealer. I thought that to be worthless and then wrote a complaint to the NHTSA and filed a complaint. That I never heard anything from them about my complaint. Last year I was in an accident due to the ABS on a slippery surface. Just luckly I was not hurt nor did I hurt anyone else. I did however cause $9k damage to my truck. I feel that I am a confident driver however this trucks ABS is DANGEROUS. I ended up selling my truck just months after my accident because I I think this truck is faulty. This forum has some good people but also has shmucks telling me that I don't know how to drive and got me nowhere. Anyway as I mentioned before, the reason why I posted this was to find out if other people had the same problems I was experincing and maybe they have the same year and model to hopefully find support in numbers. I found some people but also a lot of jerks too. I am sorry to say that I gave up on this forum and also on my truck. If I still owned this truck I think I too would take out the ABS Fuse or put a switch in to disable the ABS. I had read about that before my accident but I did not feel I wanted to be liable just incase I got in an accident. I wish all of you Tacoma owners a lot of luck and I hope you do not get in an accident and hurt yourself or someone else.

 

I disabled mine without a switch. I don't want it. It is clearly a problem in low traction situations. Even in normal situations I see it as a liability. The last thing that I want happening is the truck doing something unexpected while I'm dealing with a problem. It's not the time for a surprise, and I don't need the "help". An unpredicatable vehicle is a dangerous one to me.

I'm not making a case for others to follow suit, just sayin.

 

rmiller001, what are the details of the accident? One of our other posters says they found identical threads to this on several new car enthusiast forums.

Have you compared the ABS in the Tacoma to another new vehicle in similar situations?

Out of curiosity, have you had any professional driver training or classes? Are you familiar with the Smith system?

NHTSA has documented that most drivers slam on the brakes, and then begin to steer the vehicle. Without ABS, this usually ends up in complete loss of control. They did some driving simulation studies to confirm it (official reports on their website). That's probably why we have ABS and VSC--because it will help in that situation. It can hurt in others, obviously.

Everything on the vehicle has limitations.

 

exactly why we want to disable the shitty ABS / VSC system in snow

 

If ABS limitation is to skid on dry pavement just because one pebble.
Or VSC limitation is to go nuts trying to climb 1 inch iced hill I want money back.
Simply put it would be more cost effective to make sure people drive slower/better then trying to fix stupidity. Not to mention those system use electricity (and a lot of it) which in cars comes from fuel. So its not only an additional cost when we buy a car but then it costs us at every fill up. I am surprised no greenies protesting those systems, as all those electronic gizmos are the things that increase fuel usage in cars. Cars used to have 30 Amp alternators. Now 150Amp is not enough.

 

ATRAC isn't part of this discussion , let's keep it that way

 

Edited I meant VSC which is ABS's evil twin

 

I had a Jeep Patriot 4x4 before and the behavior of ABS system was better to a some point.

It was my first car that has a ABS system and first time I stopped, it didn't stop. I was like: WT....F !!!

Then, I went to the parking lot and I learned how ABS works. Then, I modified my driving habits because of ABS, meaning that I start to slow down much sooner before to going to the intersection or driveway.

However, Jeep Patriot has a "brake assist for panic stop" electronic, meaning that if I slam on the brakes because I got surprised when it didn't stop where it should, it will apply the maximum force (much harder that your feet) on the brake coupled with ABS system. So, I always end up stopping before going to the intersection. On alonger distance yes, but shorter than if I didn't have one. Well, I think.

Also, ABS works better if I activate the 4x4 lever (it doesn't really activate 4x4, it simply redistribute torque 50/50 to front and rear wheels. It's a FWD car until front slips and then 4x4 will engage automatically. Default torque distribution is around 70 front / 30 rear). So, when 4x4 lever is activated, and when you are below 50MPH, ABS is much less sensitive. Jeep calls this "Off-Road ABS" system.

All of this happened on hard-packed-snow with some patch of ice. So, with Jeep, I had a "workaround", I simply let 4x4 lever activated during the rest of the winter.... Yes, stopping distance was longer than without ABS but much manageable than Tacoma.

This is of course my experience and my tests without any scientific data.

Just sharin'!

 

mine cost me 800 bucks... i was going down a friend's long driveway and hit a patch of ice and it locked up and i couldnt stop before hitting a tree. new bumper, grille and headlight. fml