ABS on this truck is dangerous...

I have acreage just off Georgian Bay. If you know anything about Ontario, you'll understand. I also grew up in the snowbelt in the southwest part of the province. Again, not Toronto. These areas can often get more snow than you do, and more unpredictably. Additionally, where I am now is very hilly, not something a prairie guy has to contend with. And they don't salt dirt roads, not here, anyway.

Confused about your second comment. As temperatures drop from zero, traction improves. Just below freezing, water forms between the surface and the tire, as with a skate blade. In extreme cold, that doesn't happen, so it's actually less slippery.

 

In several instances I've close to disaster because of ABS. The first time was loaded with gear and supplies for a weeks hunting, was doing about 25 kph on fresh snow on a slightly washboarded downgrade. The non-ABS truck in front had no issues slowing down for a rather large water bar across the road, and my tires were better, brand new duratracs in fact. My ABS kicked in, rendering the brakes useless, I downshifted as much as I could, and launched through the water bar at about 40kph. Luckily the other truck had accelerated quickly after clearing the water bar.

In multiple instances I've passed a stop sign unable to brake, yet downshifting slows me down just fine, and traction is good enough to get deep into the throttle on take-off without slipping. So its not all tires and traction. The ABS logic is way too sensitive, and seems to modulate all brake channels when only one wheel slips. At least at lower speeds. I've got no complaints on its function at higher speeds.

 

This ABS system is not designed with snow in mind it seems

WAY too hyper-sensitive

 

I live in Syracuse New York. This bizarre winter aside, we routinely get more snow, ice and winter weather than even Anchorage, Alaska. I've only been driving for 30 years, but you'll forgive me if I think I know just a little about winter driving and how to stop when snow and ice are present. I have had no issues with other trucks' ABS systems in this weather aside from my new Tacoma. How do you explain that? None of my other trucks (let's see, Jeep Rubicon, Chevy Suburban, Chevy Tahoe, Ford Excursion Diesel and Land Rover, just to name the last couple) ever, ever performed like this or put me in a situation where I literally could not stop at ALL.

ABS is supposed to let you steer through a panic stop, yes, but while doing so also actually LET YOU STOP. This system does not seem to be able to do that in the instances described above and as numerous people here have attested. Reading this thread was simply anecdotal until, it happened to me. I do not overdrive my tires, my tires are siped and had less than 3000 miles on them when this occurred. I have not had an accident in more than 20 years and tend to drive on the conservative side.

Accordingly, and no disrespect meant, but I don't really believe you understand what is happening with these particular trucks and their overactive ABS systems. They are truly unsafe. I've experienced it first hand. If and when it happens to you, perhaps you will get it. I hope you never have to. Thanks and stay safe out there.

 

Well said.

 

I had to panic stop last week on dry pavement (@40-50 F) while I was starting from a stop...only to slam on the brakes when a senior citizen, at her red light, made the right turn to pull out across the right lane into the left lane, in front of the car in front of me. Speed limit on this road is only 40mph, and I was only at about 15 mph by the time I reached the intersection. I applied firm brakes once me and the guy in front of me realized she was serious about pulling into the left hand lane across the right hand lane, and my stupid ABS engaged. It was far from being considered a close call, although it did catch me off guard because of how carefree this old lady pulled out, but the abs probably should not have engaged for the amount of brake pressure I applied.

I think part of the error in the ABS system is in the way the system is measuring the brake pedal travel rate and the actual brake pedal travel distance, then tying that portion (those inputs) of the algorithm into the actual slip rates measured at the wheels by the ABS wheel sensors. To me, it seems that there is more bias on the combination of brake pedal travel rate + brake pedal travel distance than there is on the actual wheel slippage rates in the algorithm that is used to determine whether the ABS is to be engaged. The interpolation of a panic-braking contributes more 'weight' to engaging the ABS than actual vehicle slipping.

What we really need to do is figure out how to contact Consumer Reports and have them look into it. Although I think their reviews are generally biased to current market attitudes and articles (ie. putting Chrysler up on an American quality pedestal vs. throwing them under the bus from 2-3 years ago) and subjective a bit based on who is reviewing, I think their road testing is pretty consistent since its the same set of road tests run per the class of vehicle.

 

Hmm.. interesting. Do you have anything to substantiate this theory? It seems you would have to have knowledge the actual ABS logic to determine this is the case. The ABS system should be working just a hair past the threshold braking point, reducing that substantially would deteriorate performance considerably.

I can't think of any reason the pedal rate & pressure would have any bearing on the ABS pulsation (other than stepping on the brakes harder is more likely to lock up the wheels). I'm not a brake systems designer, though. The pulse rate should be strictly related to wheel lockup.

The braking system should be aware of pedal rate and pressure, as these vehicles are supposed to apply more breaking pressure to the brakes during a panic stop--but they are still somewhat unrelated. They are probably related as far as pressure relieving and so forth while performing ABS functions, but they would seem like separate loops.

I don't know... do you have access to ABS logic, perhaps even in general terms as it applies to modern vehicles? Is it available on the internet (I've never tried to look for it)?

I'm sure also if you just went to Consumer Reports' website, you could submit suggestions for them, if via no other means than just a "contact us" form. Unfortunately, CR isn't really going to do anything with the data other than publish it.

NHTSA would be the regulating body, and they have done many ABS and VSC studies. They have chosen not to remove it from vehicles, probably because of how Joe Sixpack reacts to a stopping emergency.

 

So you were still doing 40 when you hit the water? Off road, fully loaded, downhill? I think I see the problem.

 

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I've also been driving for quite a long time, 37 years, actually. I've raced cars (my other vehicle is a 911), worked in the car industry where I've had a lot of seat time on test tracks in everything you can imagine, and owned more than two dozen cars over the years (including two Land Rovers, since you mention it. The Taco's brakes absolutely destroy the ones on my Disco, though the Range Rover's were indeed a little better). I've qualified as an Emergency Vehicle Operator, and taken several high performance driving courses. I trust my own judgment.

As for the Taco, I've had it for two and a half years and simply have not experienced what you describe, and I drive in conditions as challenging as anyone's here. I spend money on seasonal tires and stay inside the envelope for the conditions I'm driving in. As I said earlier, I find these brakes weak, but have no issues with the ABS.

 

You're just trolling. You didn't read.

You're acting like:

LA LA LA I'M BETTER DRIVER THAN YOU LA LA LA LA LA

With fingers in ears and eyes closed.

 

So your saying, even though all of these other Tacoma drivers who also have experience in snow and ice, must be wrong, because you have taken some driving courses? No course is as good as actual driving experience, I don't care what you say. It will happen to you, if you actually drive in bad conditions that is, and then I hope you come back on here and admit that you where wrong. I doubt you will, but you should.

 

ABS Mod is the way to go.

 

LOL, don't tell people that. They will actually stick their foot out the door!

 

Meh this is going to be easy lawsuit against Toyota in case I rear end somebody. That ABS blows and can be easily proven. All you have to do is find a nice hill with little dirt. Pull ABS fuse out make truck stop, put ABS fuse back and watch truck roll down the hill.

 

Actually, there have been plenty of cases where "lots" of people have claimed to have a mechanical problem that didn't turn out to exist. Some of them have even happened to Toyota. So, since you're the one making the claim and I'm the one arguing for the status quo, I think the onus is on you to provide proof. After all, I can hardly provide proof that something doesn't exist, right? So I'll tell you what: You certify a class against Toyota for this, and I'll admit I was wrong. Because I'm such a nice guy, you don't even need to win the suit. Just certify a class, and I'll eat crow. Sound fair?

For future reference, read more carefully before you start dismissing posters. I wasn't the one who raised the question of 'credentials'. I think mine are at least as good as "I live in Syracuse."

 

The ABS is overactive on the slushy coastal snow we get here

 

my point in mentioning "Syracuse" is that we get significant amounts of snow and ice each winter, more so than the average joe. the point was apparently lost on you. in fact, this whole thread seems lost on you. you seem to think very highly of yourself - based solely upon your responses in this thread, maybe you are different in person - so i don't take you "too" seriously.

and just because you inferred my "credentials" were somehow lacking, i have owned 2 911's including a '73 S which will kill you if you don't know how to drive it properly, not like the modern day ones with the techno nannies that any poseur can operate (pics of my other one one have been previously posted on this forum as recently as last week) and completed skip barber's high performance driving school, in addition to track days as beginner, intermediate and advanced. i have taken bmw's motorcycle safety foundation course with my R1100R, which is by far the hardest driving experience I have ever encountered/endured. i have spent time wheeling as far away as WITC in Tennesee (driven 1000 miles each way just for the fun of it), and spent years of wheeling locally in PA with several iterations of jeeps and broncos. I have also owned a C5 Corvette, 2 BMW 3 Series, and have experience with autocrossing all of those vehicles. i have driven the Nurburgring in Germany while i lived there during my college year abroad - not really a big deal since anyone can drive it who wants to pay - but it is an experience like no other regardless.

bottom line - i probably have more driver knowledge and know how than you in many conditions - again based solely upon what you have written in this thread - but more importantly, even if this had not happened to me personally, i would take heed and give credence to people to whom it had happened, and not sounded like such a windbag dismissing them because it had not happened to me yet.

that is all. good day to you.

 

Lol

 

Nice! I'm guessing he will still say its your bad driving. Obviously that's it.

 

.
But it's more than sufficient for the typical asshat that thinks they can out drive the system. If these guys were a tenth as good a divers as they thought they were there'd be be no need for any of these systems.