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Am I towing too much?

Discussion in 'Towing' started by JWG, Nov 8, 2016.

  1. Jan 4, 2017 at 8:22 AM
    #21
    Tcoma16

    Tcoma16 Galatians 2:20

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    I'm sure she can tow that much, but as others have posted, for how long? I personally wouldn't exceed the weight limit that is recommended. To each their own however. Good luck and be safe!
     
  2. Jan 4, 2017 at 8:22 AM
    #22
    Harry

    Harry Science, Bitches

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    OP has one post 2 months ago and hasn't been on TW since then.
     
  3. Jan 4, 2017 at 8:23 AM
    #23
    tgear.shead

    tgear.shead Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean by "for how long"?
     
  4. Jan 4, 2017 at 8:24 AM
    #24
    tgear.shead

    tgear.shead Well-Known Member

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    So? Discussion is still valid, regardless of whether or not that guy ditched.
     
  5. Jan 4, 2017 at 8:29 AM
    #25
    VangaSTL

    VangaSTL Well-Known Member

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    Garrick
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    Maybe his truck blew up from towing 6,400 lbs up a 7 percent grade. No more Tacoma so why come back to the forum and listen to people trying to warn him lol
     
    Tcoma16 likes this.
  6. Jan 4, 2017 at 8:31 AM
    #26
    tgear.shead

    tgear.shead Well-Known Member

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    There is absolutely no reason why anything would "blow up" by working hard. If it isn't strong enough to make it up the grade, then he would simply have been forced to stop and call a tow.
     
  7. Jan 4, 2017 at 8:32 AM
    #27
    Tcoma16

    Tcoma16 Galatians 2:20

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    Sorry, that was a little vague. I was just trying to point out that If he's truly towing twice the recommended weight for his vehicle, issues will certainly start to appear in the form of excessive wear & tear.
     
  8. Jan 4, 2017 at 8:40 AM
    #28
    VangaSTL

    VangaSTL Well-Known Member

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    You don't know the circumstances. He could've blown a rod by working too hard. Could've cracked a piston head. Couldve blown up the oil pan. You put too much stress on anything, too much pressure and mix it with age, you don't know what could happen. What would happen if Grandpa tried to run up the stairs. Same concept.
     
  9. Jan 4, 2017 at 9:01 AM
    #29
    tgear.shead

    tgear.shead Well-Known Member

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    That is still incredibly vague.
    What is "excessive"? If the engine+transmission is good for, say, a million miles under "follows all the instructions accurately", and towing twice the printed limit reduces that by, 25%, then the engine and transmission should still last about 50%+ longer than the frame and body.

    I also wouldn't be too quick to suggest that the 4-cyl won't last as long as a 6 at or near the printed limits of a 6. The straight 4 cast iron blocks are a lot more robust (less flexing/twisting) than the aluminum V6. It isn't as if they've ever installed those V6's into a BUS.

    It would be interesting to see a proper comparison between a TR and KD (diesel) block. Visually, they look pretty similar, probably almost the same.
     
  10. Jan 4, 2017 at 10:00 AM
    #30
    tgear.shead

    tgear.shead Well-Known Member

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    I will counter your Grandpa running up the stairs with Grandpa taking his time and carefully walking up the stairs.

    Further;

    Your argument has the *feeling* of being along the lines of "more weight = more strain", which is invalid and suggests a backwards view of where the forces come from. I apologise if this is invalid, but I've seen that argument too many times.

    To put it simply, the load you are pulling does NOT create the strain on the engine/transmission. The ENGINE creates the strain on ITSELF. The internal forces will be maximum WHENEVER the engine is operating at WOT, regardless of what load you are pulling behind it. Some older engines would have the maximum strain being at a particular *speed* corresponding to maximum torque, but having VVT, the torque curve is shaped like a stack of pancakes, so it really doesn't make much difference what speed the engine is spinning.

    For instance, driving on the highway with the cruise control set for 65 mph. You come up to a hill, and as you ascend the hill, the speed drops down to 60 mph. At this point, it is operating at WOT and subjecting itself to the maximum strain possible. No load beyond the truck's own weight.

    You have two options here; (1) I'm in no hurry, so just leave it since its holding 60 at WOT. (2) deactivate cruise control and downshift.

    Now interesting thing happens when you downshift; the engine spins faster, and it is able to accelerate up the hill, back to 65 mph, even faster if you push down on the go fast pedal. It is no longer operating at WOT, it is spinning faster, but the internal forces are now LOWER than they were before.

    So here is the thing with towing something really huge; you must always maintain some reserve. If you don't, then you risk coming to a stop part way up the hill when the force holding you back (due to gravity) exceeds the force you are able to generate in a forward direction. In fact, you should always gauge your load and your hill such that you will be capable of ****starting from a stop****. I mean imagine the traffic ahead of you stops and you have to stop as well. If you can start off from a STOP, that obviously means that you are able to accelerate in 1st gear. If you can accelerate, even in 1st gear, then it means that you can pull the load up the hill at a constant (maybe quite slow) speed at LESS than full throttle. In other words, at LESS than maximum internal stresses on the engine. Or upshift as high as you can, and do it at maximum strain, remember that if the engine can take it while cruising on the highway with the cruise control on, then it can take the same thing with a big trailer behind it.

    Now about that reserve... Overseas, the same engine (2TR-FE) on a similar truck (Hilux) has higher towing capacities. Generally 5500+ pounds. Add in some design tolerances, since as much as you would like to imagine that everybody precisely measures their loads before hauling, the reality is that most people just guess at it, and what you end up with is a DESIGN capable of pulling **at least** 6500 pounds.

    So the question is, what makes the Hilux so special that it gets a rating that is 2000 pounds higher than Tacoma with the same engine, transmission, etc.? The answer is that it has NOTHING to do with the truck (or the engine), and everything to do with the speed. What you're dealing with is the tongue weight. North America = 10%, where everybody tows trailers at 70+ mph in the fast lane, overseas = 5%, where there is a towing speed limit of 80 kph (50 mph). The faster you drive, the less stable the trailer will tend to be, and the further forward you need to position your load in order to maintain stability. With a low towing speed limit, you can drop the tongue weight off and still maintain stability.

    Now this tongue weight comparison really doesn't mean much when we are talking about being able to start off from a stop on a steep slope. But what comparing to Hilux *does* do, is it establishes that the engine and transmission have the characteristics needed in order to start off from a stop on a steep slope while hauling a load that is within the bounds identified by OP -- 6400 pounds, which is certainly within (5500 pounds + design tolerance).


    Now, if you're crawling up a hill at 3/4 throttle in first gear or WOT in 2nd, will you piss off everybody driving behind you? I would say that there is a VERY high likelihood of this, yes. But more importantly, are you overstraining the engine or transmission? No. The engine will only produce as much power as it can produce. First gear... this is like Grandpa driving like Grandpa and taking his time to climb the hill, just like Grandpa should climb the stairs. In fact, OP specifically says "I don't push it. I put it in a lower gear and take my time."

    Now here is something interesting about that statement, and the one immediately following it "On more level road I keep it in 3rd gear to keep the revs up." -- implying that on the incline, he is operating in a gear lower than 3rd. He also says that he's doing about 25 mph when he gets to the top. So when you run the numbers, **assuming a 6-lug truck**, axle ratio is 4.1:1, 2nd gear is 2.06:1, tire diameter is 30.5 inches.... so at 25 mph in 2nd gear, the engine is turning 2326 RPM. If he downshifted to 1st gear (3.95:1), he could run the same speed at 4460 rpm, which is still a safe speed to run the engine at for very long periods of time. Not only that, but in first gear he could generate *double* the wheel torque, which means that it would definitely accelerate. This vehicle is NOT overstrained.
     
  11. Jan 4, 2017 at 10:29 AM
    #31
    HawkShot99

    HawkShot99 Well-Known Member

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    That's all fine and dandy, but IF you get off, the defence will have cost you what a full size truck costs. Was it worth it to have that on your mind the rest of your life?
     
  12. Jan 4, 2017 at 10:47 AM
    #32
    Tcoma16

    Tcoma16 Galatians 2:20

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    lol.. Dude, no need to be liberal about it. It's a machine... If you over do it and exceed its limits, shit will eventually fail prematurely. I never said one engine was better than the other. I was specifically talking about what the manufacture had recommended regarding towing weight.
     
  13. Jan 4, 2017 at 12:05 PM
    #33
    tgear.shead

    tgear.shead Well-Known Member

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    The thing you're looking for is this;
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(law)

    To translate that;
    defence is CHEAP, unless you are actually GUILTY of something.


    As far as anything to do with the cost of a "full size truck"... I don't want a full size truck. In fact, I specifically want NOT to have a bloated full size pig of a thing that can't be driven anywhere except in wide open interstates in texas.
     
  14. Jan 4, 2017 at 12:12 PM
    #34
    tgear.shead

    tgear.shead Well-Known Member

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    You're not paying attention.
    Regardless of manufacturer recommendations (that really the word you want? More of an instruction than a recommendation), you CAN'T overdo it (from a mechanical standpoint) by operating within the limits of a V6 with tow package, except if you have a 5-lug or x-runner. Well, at least you can't overdo it any more than you can WITH a V6 with tow package, and this assumes that you are correctly equipped, i.e., transmission cooler where applicable, appropriate tow hitch, trailer brakes of appropriate capacity, etc.
     
  15. Jan 4, 2017 at 1:35 PM
    #35
    VangaSTL

    VangaSTL Well-Known Member

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    :eek::eek::eek:
     
  16. Jan 5, 2017 at 6:51 PM
    #36
    Shocked

    Shocked Well-Known Member

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    As I said "years ago I once read" I remember it wasn't good at all. It was probably 14-16 years ago I read this. Also also why I said "I think". It was ugly, a person died, the person pulling the over weight trailer couldn't stop (due to the heavy load), and I remember they were telling about how the brakes were not meant for a load that big.

    Also, it's not only about pulling. We all know those engines can pull a lot, but stopping is a different issues. That was one thing I remembered in that article, was the brakes.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2017
  17. Jan 9, 2017 at 6:46 AM
    #37
    tgear.shead

    tgear.shead Well-Known Member

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    Well, regarding brakes, a 1980's honda civic can stop a 20,000 pound trailer easily, IF the trailer is properly equipped with brakes that are appropriate for that size of a load. Of course, it could neither get that load rolling (except maybe down a hill), nor steer it, but that is besides the point.

    Funny thing about trailer brakes... EVERY vehicle requires them once the load exceeds a certain size. I have to wonder, however, about how many people really think about that when they're buying a trailer? In a perfect world, everyone would, but some kid gets out of school and gets a good job and suddenly has a pile of money, so he goes out and buys a fancy big truck and a trailer... no experience... no real understanding of what is needed. Most trailers that I see on the road do NOT have brakes. Most that I see for sale (new) are NOT equipped with brakes, unless their EMPTY weight is more than the legal limit for pulling a trailer without brakes. There also doesn't (as far as I've seen) be a consistent requirement for having *adequate* brakes on a trailer, just that above a certain load, there have to be "brakes". In other words, if you're pulling 10,000 pounds and your trailer brakes are only good for 2000 pounds, then you may actually be legal.

    My "big" trailer, which has big hydraulic disk brakes, stops easier with a weight of around 9000-10000 pounds (trailer + load) than my boat trailer (under 2500 pounds, boat+trailer, including fuel).

    So to me, it sounds like that guy with the overweight trailer, REALLY didn't put any thought into making sure that his load was safe. That is probably more where he went wrong than whether or not his trailer was excessive for his truck. Police, lawyers, judges, juries -- they're all people. And people DO typically get it when you actually put some serious thought and care into making sure that things are safe, despite whether or not it comes out within "spec". The things that really hurt, in law, are carelessness, and bad intention. In fact, even if you are a complete imbecile and did your calculations wrong (i.e., missed a "zero" in your trailer's weight), then the GOOD intention / attempt to do things right, ALONE, can be enough to (at least) reduce the severity of the outcome (note that it won't be enough to completely get you off if somebody dies because you make a calculation wrong).
     
  18. Jan 9, 2017 at 6:55 AM
    #38
    TXpro4X4

    TXpro4X4 Fuck Cancer!

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  19. Jan 9, 2017 at 6:57 AM
    #39
    TXpro4X4

    TXpro4X4 Fuck Cancer!

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    Toy Stuff..... Faktor Amber lights on in the grill. Under front bumper led rock lighting. Center counsel c.b mod with under the hood p.a. Anytime foglight mod. R.G.B tape light for inside toekick lighting. Front and back. Front weathertech floor mats. De-Baged except TOY on tailgate. FJ style 6 speed shifter knob. Rubber tacoma bed mat. Trd exhaust. Trd 16in beadlocker style wheels. Electrical a/c 115volt plug/usb mod next to passenger knee. Fox 2.5 coilovers. Icon 2.0's in the rear. Rear locker any-time mod. Abs kill switch mod. All Pro ISF front skid Pelfrey built front differential skid Baja design pro pods Rigid pods CBI pods brackets Mobtown tailgate guard RIP Mobtown Caliraised rear amber pod lights CJ Jumper- map, running, amber fog, reverse, and license plate led bulbs Pedal Commander
    But why is thread still going?
     
  20. Jan 9, 2017 at 6:59 AM
    #40
    Large

    Large Red

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    Trans will give out before you have any engine problems, hell I think if you wanted to redline the engine until something gives you would run out of money first on gas.
     

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