Amber fog lights illegal?

Or mall cops; The hobby photographer's worst enemy!

 

Is it just me or are there crickets chirping in the background from the OP since being asked the statute code on his citation???

Toy runner is trying to be helpful with posting regs. Arguing over the yellow or amber makes me think I'm back home in a ford forum.

 

The KCs are 1800K, the DD are 2000K, so that is a pretty tight difference. Selective Yellow is 3000K usually, so I would still say 2000K is Amber. I guess to me is doesn’t matter how you get there, it’s the end result that matters. But I don’t really care either way. I say we just ask the master: @crashnburn80

 

It's a bit simplistic (and: I am not a lighting/optical/photography expert Nor do I want to present myself as one, just trying to be well read and well reasoned), but color temperatures are basically not accurate for "non-white" sources of light.

If you look at the federal regs cfr 49 fmvss 571.108 and scroll down to the tables, they have a reference color spectrum chart where specific ranges are determined to be what section of color space constitute each color. There is also references throughout for what ranges of ratios of colors can go into each resulting color for a regulated lamp.

And "3000k = yellow" has been a marketing wank going back to when HID conversions first started becoming popular. It doesn't reflect the reality of the actual spectrum/resultant color. Unfortunately, it's stuck around and companies still use it for marketing.

 

Very true, it's not all their fault per se in this case anyway. Though positive side is they never wrote me, I also didn't get the specific statute they referenced in their opinion. Ultimately no ticket no huge problem.

 

The legal color is selective yellow for fogs (not amber, that is Baja who calls yellow lights amber and confuses everyone). Selective yellow isn't a kelvin color temp, it is a defined chromaticity window (or box) that the XY coordinates of the color output in CCT plot must fall in, to be a legal color of yellow. Below are my measurements for the Max selective yellow fog, plotted on a CCT plot with the X and Y coordinates, and then below plotting those coordinates in the legal chromaticity window. You can see the color coordinates fall within the legal chromaticity window (inside the box) and is therefore is a legal color of yellow for a fog lamp.

Selective Yellow Max CCT Plot



SS3 Max Selective Yellow Chromaticity window plot. With the 6000k emitters it still falls in the legal selective yellow chromaticity window.



You can also point out to an officer the SAE compliance designation stamped on the front of a fog lamp, stating they are certified by the manufacture as a street legal lamp.

 

So the Amber Stage series light bars ARE selective yellow? I was under the impression that they are not (I believe from Diode Dynamics themselves, but it has been so long I can't say for sure). And the KC G4's are selective yellow as well? I get the SS3 MAX still falls in there, but it is also listed as a 3000K YELLOW light. By definition, a 2000K and 3000K would have different dominant wave lengths, no? I ask from an honest point of curiousity, as the G4s are referred to as Amber (rightfully so in my opinion..)

I would read that as Amber, not selective yellow? I would also read that as the KC's amber color being attributed to the color temp. Like I said, I am trying to ask an honest question, so don't take it wrong

 

Also, it's been a while since I dealt with this in Physics, but isn't CCT measured in Kelvin? So selective yellow needing to fall in a certain range of CCT would be another way of saying it needs to fall in a certain range of Kelvin, no? I mean, even the graph the posted clearly has CCT = 3106K. You can't have an equal sign if they are different things. Apples ≠ Oranges and all that...

 

Sorry I did not read the whole thread. Yes Diode Dynamics Stage Series bars are amber, as are the KC G4 ambers and Morimoto XB ambers. For fog use though, I believe this is more of a classification loophole with acceptable forward lighting colors (white/yellow/amber) as only white and yellow are designated for fog.

No, note the color temperature lines on the plot, 4000k for example. There are a lot of different ways your can get a 4000k color temp as shown by the 4000k line plot and where it passes in the X and Y coordinates on the graph. You can see the upper end of the line will have a more yellow hue and the lower end a pinker hue, but they are all 4000k. So there is a defined set of coordinates light sources must fall in to meet a criteria like selective yellow. It cannot be defined by a color temperature.

 

The KC G4, in Amber, Are Amber..

Baja Designs has marketed various Yellow-to-Selective-Yellow filtered lights as "amber," causing some confusion.

"3000k" = "Yellow/Selective Yellow" is marketing wank.

CCT is used to reference white lightsources. A monochromatic lightsource (e.g. an Amber LED emitter) is not a white lightsource. A yellow filtered light is also not a white lightsource, as it has very little to no blue wavelengths. While a lightmeter like Crashnburn80 has will correlate it to a color temp, it is also more accurately relating it to a specific area on a 2-dimensional graphical representation of how the average human eye perceives light.

That's, again, what I referenced in a previous post about the federal regs citing specific areas of color-space as the legally defined "color" for each type of lightsource.

Some states use the CIE chart for standardizing colors as well. PA does not reference it for headlight/taillight/turn/brake/dtrl light colors, but uses it for things like what color-space "School Bus Yellow" is.

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And still waiting for the OP to post what the ticket references, as far as what code/reg/statute was violated. Beyond that, I don't see how the ticket stands.

 

@Lthompson

Paging Lthompson, you started this shitstorm so how about sharing the statute number???????

 

(Will this reach 40+ pages like that one winch thread?)

Lol. The guys probably working. Or maybe this was already enough to go to the magistrate or whoever and get the ticket tossed.

 

I haven't taken any pictures of my yellow ss3 max fogs yet, but I'm extremely happy with them and the oem led headlight conversion that I did. I'm already considering ditch lights and another light bar.

 

Post a pic of the ticket.

 

Gotcha Thanks. I always understood Kelvin ratings to one very precise thing: Heating a piece of iron (? I think it was iron). So 4000K would always be the same color, regardless of how it is produced. Didn't realize there was that much variation. But once again, you taught me something And I hope the short of it is that Stage series light bars with the correct optic (and of a certain size) ARE street legal?

I would think for the definition under the law as far as Amber vs Yellow vs White, the filtered light source is ALL that matters. I can't have white brake lights, but I can stick a white light behind a red lens and be fine. Thanks for the link though, I will have to do some reading (it's a slow work day if you can't tell ) I did look at it, and the only thing I saw (granted, I was just speeding through it to see how the law defines colors, because I have always wondered that) was this:


Which looked awfully familiar. So I did this (it was a super quick job, so don't hold me to too high of a standard. Actually, never holding me to any standard is probably playing it safe)

Which I quickly realized their proportions were off, so I spent more than 10 seconds and did this:

Which helps me understand the definition of white, blue, red, green, and yellow. Still, no amber though
But you guys are teaching me all kinds of fun stuff, so thanks!

Sorry for the derailment, but I was just curious as my plans involve some Stage series light bars in amber, and I try to keep it legal. I also noticed the section on illuminated area standards for turn signals, so now I have to go down ANOTHER rabbit hole

 

I'm telling you, GET THE DITCH LIGHTS!!!

Don't get the "whites" as they don't "cut through dust" as well as the Amber ones do. I've done more than a few night runs and you will LOVE how well you can see through the dust. Obviously the dust can only be so thick and after that nothing will help.

Mine are OZ-USA mounted on CBI mounts and I'm very happy with them. I've had them for maybe close to 7x years now. Just showing you what mine look like. I need to make a video some day on how well they work.


Anyways, coming from experience take it or leave it.

Safe travels.

 

Thanks, that was kind of my thought when first turned on the yellow SS3 Max's. They're super bright and perfect for dust/snow, but I need and want more yellow light output by the front doors/fenders. I'm so glad I didn't go with the SS3 sport or pro fogs even though I haven't seen them in person.

I'm thinking of some SSC2's in selective yellow for ditch lights and maybe a diode dynamics driving pattern lightbar in "white." Just need another sale from hotshotoffroad. I've got a cali raised led combo light bar sitting on the shelf, but I think I'd get more use out of the driving pattern than the flood/spot combo. Maybe I'll hook up the cali raised light bar for fun this weekend.

 

I don’t know why they aren’t harassing and ticketing all those folks with annoying blinding, maladjusted, crappy, non-factory LED headlights?


In my jurisdiction, I live in the very rainy Pacific Northwest. I replaced and correctly aimed my factory fogs with the DD SSE Sports. I find I use them all the time recently due to the horrible, extremely shitty, dark dank wet weather we have had. Work as intended and I’m hoping I stand out to other drivers as well. No complaints from law enforcement or other motorists.