1. Welcome to Tacoma World!

    You are currently viewing as a guest! To get full-access, you need to register for a FREE account.

    As a registered member, you’ll be able to:
    • Participate in all Tacoma discussion topics
    • Communicate privately with other Tacoma owners from around the world
    • Post your own photos in our Members Gallery
    • Access all special features of the site

AR-15 BS Thread

Discussion in 'Guns & Hunting' started by BulletToothTony, Feb 21, 2009.

  1. Jan 9, 2019 at 8:31 PM
    JDAM

    JDAM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2013
    Member:
    #104062
    Messages:
    1,913
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Jerrad
    North Bend, WA
    Vehicle:
    12 DCSB TRD OR
    ya man anytime, that would be fun!
     
  2. Jan 10, 2019 at 7:09 AM
    velillen

    velillen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2013
    Member:
    #118589
    Messages:
    4,325
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Nick
    Kitsap, WA
    Vehicle:
    2011 Access Cab 4x4
    Extended but not includeing any removable muzzle devices. If pin and welded then you can count it (for muzzle devices)


    GF leaves for AK for ~4 months Feb 1st soooo any time during then pretty much.
     
    JDAM likes this.
  3. Jan 10, 2019 at 12:54 PM
    Max713

    Max713 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2013
    Member:
    #117569
    Messages:
    392
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Max
    Albany, OR
    Incorrect. That is the method for measuring with rifles. With pistols, it's measuring it's shortest possible functioning length. You measure from the end of the buffer tube, to the end of the barrel (or pinned muzzle device). Stupid, I agree. But it is what it is.

    The shortest possible barrel length you can get to meet the 26" overall length requirement for a VFG is a 10.5" barrel WITH a Law Tactical folder on it. A bit of grey area since the firearm can technically fire once with the brace folded, at the risk of damaging the firearm. The shortest length without the Law Folder is a 11.5" Barrel.

    Another problem. If the AR or whatever platform was sold as a pistol and not a "firearm" (as most stripped receivers are sold as), then you can never put a VFG on it, no matter the overall length. Another grey-ish area (seriously, this is way down the rabbit hole). Basically if the firearm is over 26" in overall length without a stock (ever) it is considered a "firearm" and nothing else, you can put a VFG on it. You cannot go back and fourth with designations. Just like if a receiver is designated as a "rifle", you can't just swap the stock for a brace and throw a short barrel on there. Once a rifle always a rifle.

    Welcome to the NFA :rofl:
     
    Holloman, golfindia and 95 taco like this.
  4. Jan 10, 2019 at 1:52 PM
    golfindia

    golfindia Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2017
    Member:
    #228000
    Messages:
    578
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes.
    Vehicle:
    2017 4x4 access cab AT
    Yeah, that's a nightmare. No thanks, I'll just fork over the 2 hundy.
     
  5. Jan 10, 2019 at 2:03 PM
    Max713

    Max713 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2013
    Member:
    #117569
    Messages:
    392
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Max
    Albany, OR
    I wouldn't say a nightmare... just a lot of BS to wade through. But once you get it figured out, it's not bad at all.
    Also, its not as simple as just forking out the money for an SBR. There's forms to fill out (or pay someone to fill them out for you), fingerprints to have done (Sheriffs office is the only place in my town that will do them, they require an appointment), and passport photos to have taken. If you go through Silencershop they make the process much easier and only charge you $35 for the service. If you're near one of their Kiosks it's a breeze. Unfortunately they're working out some bugs in the system right now so it is not currently available.

    I have 10'ish AR pistols, and 3 AR SBR's. There's definitely a role for both.
     
  6. Jan 10, 2019 at 2:12 PM
    golfindia

    golfindia Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2017
    Member:
    #228000
    Messages:
    578
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes.
    Vehicle:
    2017 4x4 access cab AT
    E Form 1 is back online. You can submit one in 15 minutes. Pre shutdown approvals were taking 2 weeks. You can print yourself. CVS and wallgreens do passport photos for $12.
     
    95 taco likes this.
  7. Jan 10, 2019 at 2:25 PM
    Max713

    Max713 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2013
    Member:
    #117569
    Messages:
    392
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Max
    Albany, OR
    Just pointing out that it's not as simple as paying someone $200. There's hoops to jump through, and often complications. I've got 12 Tax stamps, I've been through it a couple times.
     
  8. Jan 10, 2019 at 2:47 PM
    JDAM

    JDAM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2013
    Member:
    #104062
    Messages:
    1,913
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Jerrad
    North Bend, WA
    Vehicle:
    12 DCSB TRD OR
    I should just SBR to be safe and then I could get any MP5 stock and VFG. I read that for AR's you measure to the end of the buffer tube because it's the rear most part that is required to function. I'm wondering, on my MP5 if I remove the brace the lower falls off and the bolt falls out the back, so it's a required part to function. LOL

    There is a lot of contradicting information out there.
     
  9. Jan 10, 2019 at 2:56 PM
    golfindia

    golfindia Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2017
    Member:
    #228000
    Messages:
    578
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes.
    Vehicle:
    2017 4x4 access cab AT
    And today's "opinion" on how to measure or what to measure may change tomorrow. Case in point, the bump stock. It was ok until it wasn't ok.
     
    wilcam47 and JustJon like this.
  10. Jan 10, 2019 at 2:56 PM
    velillen

    velillen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2013
    Member:
    #118589
    Messages:
    4,325
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Nick
    Kitsap, WA
    Vehicle:
    2011 Access Cab 4x4

    Have a source showing its now measure with a collapsed brace? Since all Im seeing is still the ATF's method of measuring which is muzzle (excluding removable muzzle devices) to the rear most portion as was called out by their Tech Branch (and has been how many brace manufcatures have measured and submitted ot the ATF).....granted that was like 2 years ago for the last one I cared to look at. This doesnt include the folding braces which I know are under some weirdness last i heard. ATF wanting to measure them folded.

    Just like having sources for future use when learning of rule changes :)
     
  11. Jan 10, 2019 at 3:15 PM
    Max713

    Max713 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2013
    Member:
    #117569
    Messages:
    392
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Max
    Albany, OR
    Just another grey area that is likely never to have a clear answer for...
    I would argue though, that you could easily replace the brace with an "end plate" that would hold the bolt in place. I'm only assuming this, I don't have an MP5 but there are plenty that are sold without a brace at all.

    Exactly... the problem is that a lot of these rules are just "opinions" or opinion letters, that can be changed at any given point. The whole thing is a mess. The NFA is such a flawed entity its ridiculous.

    I'll have to google around for it tonight. I'm at work at the moment, work computers really limit what I can get in to.
    I was shown the information a while back, can't remember if it was within an opinion letter or within the actual definition written by the ATF. I believe it came to light after the ATF "busted" a gun shop for "illegal AOW's" because they were putting vert grips on CZ Scorpions that measured over 26" when the brace was extended but when folded was under 26". I think at that point an opinion letter came out detailing how to correctly measure a "pistol".
    Google "ATF measuring pistols folded" or "ATF measure AR pistol". You should be able to find it, I'll look around tonight.
     
  12. Jan 10, 2019 at 3:29 PM
    velillen

    velillen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2013
    Member:
    #118589
    Messages:
    4,325
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Nick
    Kitsap, WA
    Vehicle:
    2011 Access Cab 4x4
    I wouldn't say it's flawed....rather it just needs to be updated to today's technology. Things were a ton simplier when it was written. It's just never been updated and instead just had to many opinion letters being issued.

    Though I do think the whole thing should be abolished

    That was an instance for side folding braces specifically and not for traditional m4 style ones. Also it was directed at specific guns a gun shop sold which had the side folding braces and a vertical foregrip. Atf ruled to measure with the brace folded which meant it was under 26" and an AOW not a "firearm". Think it had issue with CT laws too?

    But like anything it's the ATF so your guess is as good as mine :)
     
  13. Jan 10, 2019 at 3:36 PM
    Max713

    Max713 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2013
    Member:
    #117569
    Messages:
    392
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Max
    Albany, OR
    Abolished would be fantastic haha.

    I agree that that instance was specific to side folding braces on a specific firearm, but I believe in that letter they also expanded to include the expectation for measuring AR type pistols as well, or at least you could easily ascertain it from the language used in the letter.

    So much of what the ATF says can be interpreted in multiple ways... hence the many grey areas. I supposed I'd rather a "grey area" than a definite no though.
    Still going to have to find that letter tonight.
     
    95 taco likes this.
  14. Jan 10, 2019 at 6:54 PM
    velillen

    velillen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2013
    Member:
    #118589
    Messages:
    4,325
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Nick
    Kitsap, WA
    Vehicle:
    2011 Access Cab 4x4
    The more I look into the Gun Shop in question the more i see they were just foolish. Showing pictures and videos of them removing the straps from their braces. Which is actually specifically called out in the ATF's "shouldering a brace" reversal letter.



    As for the "how to measure" thing....this is the ATF letter Im basing things on. Which again excludes side folding braces witht he whole previously mentioned thing (or more thats more gray area). Im only linking to page 3 though but it has the info needed. Note the letter is all about AR pistols.
    https://i.imgur.com/iIRM3Zn.jpg
     
  15. Jan 11, 2019 at 2:09 AM
    magnetic11

    magnetic11 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2012
    Member:
    #72357
    Messages:
    855
    First Name:
    Matt
    "some nuke plant"
    Vehicle:
    11 trd sport
    Fab fours front and rear bumpers, B.A.M.F. weld on rock sliders, softopper, removed mud flaps and D-Badged everything. Icon 2.5 Extended Travel coil-overs, Total Chaos upppers, 2.0 Icon extended travel shocks with the resi's and Dekar Leaf packs.
    I’d give it to you that a really good brace is expensive, but no more than what the Tax Stamp would be and I only paid $75 for mine, that’s as much as a DD stock that I own. VFG are a personal choice, I like an AFG, personaly.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
    Bagman and IPNPULZ like this.
  16. Jan 12, 2019 at 3:52 AM
    JustJon

    JustJon Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2018
    Member:
    #273056
    Messages:
    38
    Gender:
    Male
    Michigan
    Vehicle:
    18 DCSB OR
    Bingo.. I have a registered SBR and a few AR pistols. The SBR is hands down the winner for me. But, I do like the pistols for ease of transport and crossing state lines yada yada.

    My fear is someone high up changes their mind on AR pistols and gone they are. Feinstein's proposed ban of 2019 targets AR pistols as well as all the scary black "assault rifles". I know it wont pass but you never know..
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
    95 taco likes this.
  17. Jan 13, 2019 at 9:24 AM
    magnetic11

    magnetic11 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2012
    Member:
    #72357
    Messages:
    855
    First Name:
    Matt
    "some nuke plant"
    Vehicle:
    11 trd sport
    Fab fours front and rear bumpers, B.A.M.F. weld on rock sliders, softopper, removed mud flaps and D-Badged everything. Icon 2.5 Extended Travel coil-overs, Total Chaos upppers, 2.0 Icon extended travel shocks with the resi's and Dekar Leaf packs.
    Everything is up on the chopping block, these days. But I would say the ones that are registered with the ATF, are already on watched listed, as where non registered guns are not. JMO.
     
  18. Jan 13, 2019 at 9:55 AM
    golfindia

    golfindia Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2017
    Member:
    #228000
    Messages:
    578
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes.
    Vehicle:
    2017 4x4 access cab AT
    Remember that the NFA also includes machine guns. A majority of which are owned as "investments" by the super wealthy and the well connected. So I doubt NFA items will be messed with any time soon.
     
  19. Jan 15, 2019 at 9:13 AM
    MedlinAround

    MedlinAround Failure is the result of letting setbacks stop you

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2010
    Member:
    #46511
    Messages:
    6,002
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Cody
    Kentucky
    Vehicle:
    2008 TRD off-road edition Tacoma
    Bilstein 5100's, OME 885X Coils, Dakar HD Springs, Fox 2.0 Rear Shocks, Magnaflow exhaust, Volant Intake, OKledlight pods, Front Skid Plate, Weathertec Floor Liners, Custom Bed Rack, TRD Nation interior LED dome kit, 4X innovations sliders, DIY Roof Rack, Smittybilt RTT.
    Ordered a Vortex Crossfire scope for the AR. What's a decent mount for the price. Seen a few on Amazon anywhere from $20 to nearly $100+ and so on. As long as it holds the scope sturdy through some torture by the look of some of the reviews what's the benefit in $100+ mount for the same objective?
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
  20. Jan 15, 2019 at 4:23 PM
    Tlook

    Tlook Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2011
    Member:
    #48775
    Messages:
    2,342
    Gender:
    Male
    How accurate do you wanna be?
     
    EubeenHadd and MedlinAround like this.

Products Discussed in

To Top