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Calif Smog Issues I/M Monitors

Discussion in 'Technical Chat' started by winter1, Apr 11, 2018.

  1. Apr 11, 2018 at 1:51 PM
    #1
    winter1

    winter1 [OP] New Member

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    Hello all. I replaced F & R cat converters on my 03 Tacoma. Now when I hook up the scanner I get a "No Codes" reading (which is great) but when I check the I/M Monitor status I am getting a INC on the cat converter monitor (which is not great). I have put over 500 miles on the vehicle since changing the cats. Smog Station won't even test unless the I/M monitors all read OK. What I need to know is what it takes to get an "OK" reading on my scanner for the I/M Cat Monitor. Anybody have a similar problem? Thanks for any help/advice you can give.
     
  2. May 13, 2018 at 8:08 PM
    #2
    lvs2rock

    lvs2rock Well-Known Member

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    This is not an uncommon problem, just a major PITA. Here's a link w/specifics on resetting all of them for Toyotas. Follow the directions, and good luck! : https://antiochstarsmogcheck.com/toyota-drive-cycle-obdii-readiness-monitors/

    Also on that page:
    there's a link after the 11 procedures list (above the drive cycle graphic) titled "Source....." that goes to a Toyota TSB that covers a huge range of Toyota models and takes a while to read through.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2018
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  3. May 15, 2018 at 11:53 AM
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    winter1

    winter1 [OP] New Member

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    Thanks, I am getting a bit desperate here having now replaced both O2 sensors as well. Since I am being told that all that is left is replacing the computer ($$$) and that doing so is no guarantee that the problem will be resolved I am really glad to have an alternative to try. I will give it a shot and post the results when I done so. Not an uncommon problem?, wow. That is a bummer for for lots of people I imagine. Thanks again
     
  4. May 16, 2018 at 12:39 AM
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    lvs2rock

    lvs2rock Well-Known Member

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    re-reading this thread makes me think that maybe some clarification would help ( on both sides). You replaced both cats and O2 sensors, then checked OBD ll w/scanner to verify truck now ready to smog. No codes BUT an INC (incomplete) on the Readiness Monitor for the cat(s). And, as we know all too well, an incomplete monitor is an automatic fail for some vehicles.....that's the only INC, correct? so 'all' you gotta do is complete the correct drive cycle for the catalytic converter monitor.....
    voila:

    er, oops.......

    damn, I thought I had bookmarked the BAR or CARB page w/ALL the info for Toyotas drve cycles but I can't seem to find it. Next best: for reference, the official "Full Version" for CA


    https://www.bar.ca.gov/pdf/Smog_Check_OBD_Reference_Full_Version.pdf

    and here's a somewhat more user -friendly reference, unfortunately I don't know what engine you have so this might not be a perfect fit, but..........:

    https://share.qclt.com/丰田Toyota RAV4 Repair Manual/2AZ-FE Engine Control System/SFI System/005005.pdf

    that last link is pretty well-written and includes some relevant info that could mean the difference between passing and failing.

    Good luck, and let me know if this info helps or not, please! If it does not, don't panic, you're not (quite) out of options yet-but we'll cross that bridge only if necessary, ok? I am interested in the outcome, so don't forget to come back.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2018
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  5. May 18, 2018 at 3:24 PM
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    winter1

    winter1 [OP] New Member

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    YES! lvs2rock, thank you. I went to the antiochstarsmogcheck site you recommended, found the Toyota Drive Cycle page and Drive Cycle I thought I needed. Then, armed with a stopwatch and cruise control, I performed the parameters as described. It worked. My scanner now shows an OK for the I/M cat monitor that for months now, had been reading inc. In fact, I went down this morning and my Tacoma is now smogged. Fantastic. This problem had me stumped and I was getting a bit desperate.

    Thanks again for sharing your knowledge and resources. Right now, if you said you could also walk on water, I would believe it . . . laughing. Much appreciated.
     
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  6. May 21, 2018 at 3:08 PM
    #6
    lvs2rock

    lvs2rock Well-Known Member

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    <<blush>> you are welcome!!! I don't walk on water but I think some of the other guys here do.....I'm glad I could finally 'pay it forward', so to speak.
    BTW welcome to Tacomaworld!!
     
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  7. May 22, 2018 at 10:40 AM
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    winter1

    winter1 [OP] New Member

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    Maybe so my friend, but yours was the only response I received and that enabled me to resolve a problem that was fast becoming, to me at least, unsolvable.

    Re Tacoma World, I am glad to have joined and will check in regularly now. I've looked around the site and it seems like a great site with lots of great information and resources due to the contributions from the members. See ya.
     
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  8. May 22, 2018 at 1:37 PM
    #8
    lvs2rock

    lvs2rock Well-Known Member

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    :thumbsup: you made my day. See you!
     
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  9. Jul 15, 2018 at 10:02 PM
    #9
    motufan

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    Hi all, First timer here but I appreciate the help I've gotten in the past. I also have a similar issue (catalytic and EGR/VVT I/M monitors remaining "inc" after codes were reset) to what's been discussed here. I've replaced a stuck (open) thermostat that likely was keeping the coolant too cool for the monitors to detect, I've driven the Toyota recommended monitor-specific drive cycles about 8 times now, and driven a total of about 800 miles over the last month since the reset. Since the thermostat was replaced I've driven the drive cycles and put about 150 miles on the Tacoma. What's next? Most discussions have solved the monitor issue with the drive cycles but my truck is remaining stubborn! I'll hit an emissions repair shop tomorrow but I'd feel better tapping in to the expertise here.

    Thank you in advance ……...
     
  10. Jul 17, 2018 at 1:17 PM
    #10
    motufan

    motufan Member

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    An update ……….. mechanic has driven the Tacoma several times, the EGR valve was found to be stuck closed so that was replaced. And the EGR/VVT I/M monitor stayed "inc"(!) in addition to the catalytic I/M monitor. We're cleaning out the cylinders next and then ...…? Not sure. Who else has gone this far - or beyond - and is willing to share their ordeal? If you do, much thanks.
     
  11. Jul 20, 2018 at 10:36 PM
    #11
    lvs2rock

    lvs2rock Well-Known Member

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    what exact "drive cycles" have you performed? and from where did you get the information?

    presumably you are located in California?

    and, oh, yes, welcome to Tacomaworld !
     
  12. Jul 21, 2018 at 1:05 AM
    #12
    motufan

    motufan Member

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    Yes, California ……… and thank you for the welcome!

    I used the Toyota Technical Service Bulletin "Readiness Monitor Drive Patterns" dated March 29, 2002 for all '96-'02 models (I have a '96 2WD Tacoma). I've attached the PDF. To reset my two wayward monitors (Catalyst, EGR/VVT), I used the drive patterns "3" and "1" for the EGR and catalyst, respectively.

    The current repair shop specializes in emissions repairs and they're scratching their heads. They've monitored coolant/engine temps, replaced non-working parts, cleaned out filters and cylinders, and taken it out on the road with the above drive cycles/patterns plus other ones that they know about that have worked in the past, and still can't get the two monitors to reset. They say it's happening more frequently now and the auto companies have been a bit slow to correct monitor stubbornness.

    I see from the BAR document you provided earlier that these Toyotas are recognized as having issues with monitor resets ……….. but that ain't exactly helping me pass my smog test!
     

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  13. Jul 21, 2018 at 10:03 PM
    #13
    lvs2rock

    lvs2rock Well-Known Member

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    ouch-sounds like your situation is rating high on the PITA scale!
    Can you clarify some details, please? You say the EGR valve was found to be stuck closed. How was this determined? Was there a code thrown for it ? If so, what was the code? Or was the valve physically tested with a vacuum pump and thus found to be "stuck closed"? As I understand it it's rather uncommon for the EGR itself to fail (but it does happen). More typically, in my experience, is for the valve and/or the tube connecting it to the exhaust to get clogged up with carbon/soot deposits- and I do mean _clogged_, to the point where no airflow is possible and the deposits have to literally be chiseled out. After replacing the EGR valve the code(s) were cleared, correct? Then the drive cycles were repeated: by the shop/mechanic or by you? Finally, are there any codes pending?

    edit:
    I re-read your post and see you've already answered my question regarding the performance of the drive cycle: sorry about that, my mistake.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2018
  14. Jul 22, 2018 at 9:33 AM
    #14
    motufan

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    PITA is indeed working overtime. Funny, but the repair shop is full of vehicles with codes that won't reset. So at least I have company .....

    I believe your description of the "closed" EGR valve is accurate, that it was clogged and unable to function. The mechanic inspected it and determined that it was not functioning and needed to be replaced. No codes have come up since the inital O2 Check Engine light came on a month ago (and was cleared then). He's checked vacuum to the catalytic convertor to check on holes (disrupting airflow) and a few other items that escape my memory now. His recommendation at this point is to go to a referree and get a two-year waiver, as he can't think of other items to pursue at this time without simply replacing parts and keeping fingers crossed. From what I understand, because the shop is a certified emissions repair facility, I don't need to get a dealer okay that all has been tried.

    What's aggravating is that my initial emissions testing passed, it was just the two I/M monitors not being ready that failed the test. So, if I re-do the emissions test and it again passes the standards AND shows the two monitors still not re-setting after 1000 miles driven and $650+ in repairs ........... the waiver is generally granted. We'll see .......... one last weekend of head-scratching and then we'll do a new emissions test and then likely request a waiver. But that doesn't solve things, just pushes them out. BTW, the Tacoma drives great with 280K miles now!

    Thanks for your interest and queries ........ all idea are welcome!
     
  15. Jul 23, 2018 at 10:44 AM
    #15
    lvs2rock

    lvs2rock Well-Known Member

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    if the EGR was clogged it's likely the EGR pipe was clogged -replacing the EGR without clearing the pipe won't do any good. Presumably this has been addressed-you did say this shop specialises in smog repairs, correct? .....but it wouldn't hurt to confirm. Even pros can overlook things-it happens.
    Pretty sure you're correct about the referee and waiver situation, I believe $500 or more in repairs is sufficient grounds for the waiver. If you can't get at least one of the monitors to complete it looks like that's going to be the only realistic option- ----You _are_ aware that you can have any one monitor INC (See the BAR document above, page 7) and still pass smog with this truck, yes ? (That is if all else is good-emissions within limits, visual inspection passed, etc) .
    I know what you mean about the aggravation factor-so close but not close enough. And the waiver-you don't want a temporary 'pass', you want this fixed, done, solved so you don't _have_ to sweat the next go-round, right? Right there with ya, bro. Unfortunately I have nothing more to offer in terms of a solution but you have my sincere sympathy.

    Good luck to you and please update with final outcome.
     
  16. Jul 23, 2018 at 3:32 PM
    #16
    motufan

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    Sympathy and luck are welcome. I feel that the shop I'm currently at is good and so I'm confident that they've cleaned out the hoses/pipes that directly impact the identified problem items. I know they've done a separate cleaning of the cylinders and exhaust system. Good reminder though. They've been good about searching for answers without hitting my pocketbook and doing plenty of drive pattern trips to see if the nut has finally been cracked. No luck on resetting the monitors, but as I mentioned above, the truck is running better than ever now!

    Thanks for the reminder of being allowed one INC monitor, it is confusing and one hears conflicting direction until going directly to the BAR document. BAR has made me unhappy, however, as my call to check on referee center availability revealed that OBDII diagnostic monitor issues MUST go to the dealer to complete a four point Q&A before BAR will referee any emission issues. So I'm stuck going to the dealer and being at their mercy ……… And unfortunately the dealer knows that I cannot drive the truck or sell it until they give me a thumbs up. How much will THAT cost me, especially with no guarantees that their recommended repairs will actually reset the monitors. Anyway, enough bitching, I'll let you know how things turn out. Appreciate your listening!
     
  17. Jul 23, 2018 at 9:40 PM
    #17
    lvs2rock

    lvs2rock Well-Known Member

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    quote :

    "BAR has made me unhappy, however, as my call to check on referee center availability revealed that OBDII diagnostic monitor issues MUST go to the dealer to complete a four point Q&A before BAR will referee any emission issues. So I'm stuck going to the dealer and being at their mercy ........." end quote

    oh that is wrong on so many levels!!! What a complete crock!!!!!<<<cue outrage/disbelief>> I think I'd wind up in some bureaucrats face demanding answers for such questions as :" well, why do I have to go to the dealer for this Q & A bs when the dealer is NOT authorized/empowered/qualified by the great state of California to perform smog tests but the shop that I've been bankrolling IS?" " And while we're on the subject, (sir), would you mind showing me the statute/ordnance/official documents wherein this little caveat is writ?" From my point of view there's a glaring lack of logic there.

    Hmm, maybe this thread would be more 'at home' in the WTF? (Welcome to Florida!) thread......
     
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  18. Jul 23, 2018 at 9:48 PM
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    motufan

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    Happened to be online when I got notice of your post …

    VERY well said, sir! You blew up better than I did today when I called my wife to seriously vent. I think I'll print your reply for future reference! In the meantime, here's the offending letter I must carry, with head bowed low, to my local unworthy Toyota dealer.

    As you so richly said, WTF???
     

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  19. Jul 24, 2018 at 7:00 AM
    #19
    lvs2rock

    lvs2rock Well-Known Member

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    lol!

    to hide the bitten lips and grinding teeth as you struggle to stay civil-ised.
     
  20. Jul 28, 2018 at 11:40 AM
    #20
    motufan

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    A bit long here, but it might prove useful … and it did resolve the issue!

    Went to the dealer …….. they couldn't work on my Tacoma the first day (in at 10:20), but the service manager called and told me that "their best smog guy" would be on my truck the next day. Heard nothing on day two so went to the dealer in person at 5pm to ask what's going on? Service manager came out and looked at me blankly, then remembered there was something in "parts" and disappeared into the parts area. Out he came and asked me, "when did I replace the thermostat?" I said last week. He said, "well, your coolant is not getting hot enough so we think your thermostat is bad." He continued, "once the temperature is measured as too low, the I/M monitors don't check anything else, so nothing progresses due to the way the software is written." I said I know and understand this, which is why we replaced it first thing last week. I asked when did this temperature test occur? He said, "today." I said I know it was today but at what time ……… then we both saw the tech's time stamp: 7:40am that morning. I said (first wisps of steam coming from my ears) why didn't anybody contact me during the day to move forward on this so that we wouldn't have lost yet another day? I have one more day to pass smog without incurring major PITA effort (I.e., registration past due) and after two whole days of my Tacoma in your shop you can only say that I might have a thermostat problem (fists beginning to clench and ears swept back) and you've done absolutely nothing about it? I said it's a $30 part …… call me and REPLACE the f*@#ing part and move forward. WTF??? Basically, I lit into the guy, but in a normal voice, no shouting. But I was seriously pissed at having so much time wasted.

    He apologized and I said okay ……. please replace the thermostat and call me when needed so we can keep moving forward.

    Day three at about 9:30am I get a text that my truck is ready and that all monitors have been re-set. I pick it up and get it smogged and it passes (with very nearly identical results to my pre-repair "INC monitors" values), so the issue is now closed, my Tacoma is good for another two years.

    What a spectacular cluster …………. maybe the emissions repair shop never re-checked temps after replacing the thermostat or maybe the new thermostat they put in went bad right away, or maybe the dealer is full of ……. something. I figured day three at the dealers would be getting them to reset my EGR monitor and let the catalyst monitor remain INC, as I'm allowed one INC monitor and fixing EGR has to be much cheaper than fixing the catalytic convertor …… but somehow, someway, the dealer got the I/M codes reset in a couple of hours what three weeks couldn't accomplish before. The emissions repair shop owner says that the software on many vehicles is poorly written, and that manufacturers know this, but to publicly admit that software patches or new downloads must occur is similar to admitting fault a la recall notices. So the glitches are recognized but not publicized.

    Bottom line? If you're within a couple of months of your smog testing, never ever disconnect the battery or pull any fuses that might clear I/M codes. So, do not install that new stereo until AFTER smog testing! If you have an I/M monitor issue, check and re-check that coolant temps are above 180 degrees before doing your drive patterns, or else you're simply wasting gasoline. And good luck.
     
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