Can you say excessive force....

Stories like this merely uphold my hatred for cops.

 

Agreed. They took it too far. Initially- His window and door were closed, so they can't smell him. Break out the window and then he is cringing/shying away- still can't smell him. Get him on the ground and beat him is where they went over the line.
But if erratic driving and diminished mental capacity can occur without warning and without being identified by the driver- That sounds dangerous. I don't wanna say they shouldn't be allowed to drive- but it would seem that they need a better awareness of how they are doing physically.

Innocent until proven guilty is great...until an innocent trusting cop gets blown away by a guilty person who doesn't want to give anyone a chance to prove it. Approaching a suspected drunk drive skeptically and ready for a fight makes sense- If a drunk was oogling your female companion or you are trying to talk a buddy out of driving- Do you walk up to them an ask nicely and they just stop....or do you expect a challenge??
Sorry- but innocent until proven guilty is a court room ideology- The initial removal of this guy from his car wasn't punishment- and the latter treatment of this guy once he was on the ground wasn't legal.

Go read about Castle Rock vs Gonzales and tell me what you think about Protect and Serve. Those words don't show up in any of the oaths I've read. Loose concepts maybe...but not those words.
I'll say it again- Cops are armed historians and if they are lucky they are on scene soon enuf after an event to do something about it.

The cars around here don't say that- read up above about Castle Rock vs Gonzalez
And they don't work for you. Just like I don't work for you. Your money pays the gov't which pays me to do the job that my branch tells me to do.
I work to

If cops worked for civilians everyone would expect to never get a ticket or arrested but have everyone else get caught every time they do anything wrong.

You don't need stories like this. You've made up your mind based on whatever has happened to you in the past. Cause if you want anecdotal evidence of police performance- Look at the number of arrests that happen daily, monthly, or yearly in a given area...and then look at how many excessive force complaints get upheld in the same area. The percentages will bear out an answer...I don't think you'll like it tho.

 

All of you who dont agree with me are crazy!

You do have a nice truck though.

 

I'm embarrassed this happened in my state. I normally hold our Sheriffs in high reguard compared to most of the municiple cops we have. Our Highway Troopers are all business and it sounds like from the article that the victim was lucky one showed up.

Things are getting too close to "shoot first, ask questions later" for me these days. Do I need to assume the position every time i see a LEO to avoid being assaulted?

 

I like how some people here say: the cops need to be held to a higher standard, and they are ...... people over buy into innocent till proven guilty hoping that its a trick to always get them out of stuff for themself too.....try to twist law enforcement to lock up the police (tells me what kind of lawlessness you may be) . and more.

"they work for the tax payers" where do people twist this ignorance from to so rightously serve themselves?Do you expect a cop to bow to you oh holy payer of taxes.....they pay taxes too btw. THEY SERVE THE LAW! in particular . they enforce the law, through that they uphold public safety. Try calling 911 , and tell them ...I am a taxpayer....you /we owe taxes to make it run.
1) the media shows the sensational , and i feel they show a bias against police overall. Show how many times they got it right , no just when they got it wrong.They come from all of us,look at yourself , your cousin, friends.....and now you know why they make mistakes , they're people like us.
2) perhaps the outspoken critics against police should be allowed to opt out of paying taxes supporting police ...and they get that data and diligently never respond to your residence.
I'm pretty sure that video , the person they arrested, will get an officer on discipline , even fired, no doubt it went really wrong. But if you judge all or even most poilce from one video , you are a bigot, you are prejudice , and ignorant, like any other diversity issue. What? you can't openly hate minorities anymore, or be sexist, youl have to have a targeted hate group, so you choose police?That might not be what you are actually saying , but its what im seeing.

 

I'll just say that I love watching Law and Order...especially the episodes where the crooked cops get whats coming to 'em.

 

ahhh i was hoping for a video ); hahaha

 

I know I'm gonna bring on a shit storm here but in my experience most cops are fuckin assholes. Even one of my buddies is a cop and the stories he tells me is of him and his punk ass cops friends being dickheads to people for no reason. I know they are not ALL bad but MOST are in my opinion. Bunch of sissies that got bullied when they were young and can only step up with a gun and badge protecting them. There is a cop in my town that is the biggest prick you would ever meet. His brother is the chief of police so he got the job with no qualifications. I hear stories from the older guys in town saying that he used to run the weed trade in town, he even has a tattoo of a weed leaf on his forearm. I know that because I have seen it (while he was in uniform). I really wish there was a more thorough screening process so some of these pricks wouldn't get a badge and gun.

 

X2

 

I could only wish these dirtbag cops were fired and have charges brought against them....then spend years in pound me in the ass prison getting ass raped every hour of the day.

 

It's unfortunate you try to equate everyone else's situation directly to yours. I understand from reading the original post that the individual in fact was having diabetic issues.
That said, you apparently take pretty good care of yourself. Great. This person appeared to be out of control. Initially, because the officers weren't in the car right beside him reacted as if he was driving under the influence. Why, because they were looking for that. I have to assume you have experience around other Type I diabetics and would know that they can have extreme reactions when their levels are not managed. This can and frequently does include belligerent and even violent behavior- through no fault of their own.

I did not lump Diabetics. I am Type II diabetic. I have a basic understanding of the situation. I also know several diabetics who have caused major injuries to themselves and worse yet, these assholes who don't take care of themselves have had major car accidents causing bodily injuries to others. I say assholes because many are still driving with or without licenses, insurance, etc. What is the assholes excuse? I have to get to work somehow.

Diabetics in control are great. I also know several who unless you actually saw them giving themselves an injection might never know they were diabetic. For you I will clarify, (Type I) diabetics who don't eat, properly, exercise regularly, monitor their levels sufficiently should not be driving, now or ever.

sorry for the rant. I don't think any of us here are totally ignorant or we wouldn't have commented in the first place. Except for maybe a few of those who decided that only the cops had done anything wrong.

 

Well said.

 

I work in law enforcement and I would like to give you guys some insights into some things that you guys should understand. This is a tragic case, but I must believe there is more going on regarding this than what is reported. I am not going to pretend to know the unreported facts of the case, so here goes.


The US supreme court in Graham v. Connor set the standard for Use of Force by law enforcement officers. The standard is Objective Reasonableness, or what would a reasonable and prudent officer do in a similar situation. In Graham v. Connor, the officers thought the suspect may have shoplifted from a convenience store. The officers pulled him over but the suspect was having a diabetic emergency. The officer had never seen a diabetic emergency like what he was seeing, even though he had diabetic friends. The officer didn’t think diabetics acted that way, so he didn’t believe the suspect. Ultimately, the officer was not held liable for excessive force because he was going off of his knowledge of the facts at the time. So the case has some very interesting similarities.


But one thing I have learned of people, is that there are many out there who will spin a story to gain support and embellish the facts in their favor. The police wont release the details of an ongoing investigation. I would be interested in hearing the officers POV as to why they reacted the way they did. The Trooper showed up midway into the ordeal and didn’t experience all the same things the original cops did. Things that I notice from the story are: This was a tall and burly man, he was driving eratically, and didn’t appear to be following the officers commands. He appeared to be fighting the officers efforts because the officers had to “wrestle” him to the ground. This guy was NOT compliant and this is a potentially deadly situation for the officers.


I don’t know the amount of time the suspect took to pull over. They talk of the cop approaching the vehicle with guns drawn; under the limited facts that are presented it may be appropriate to have done so if there are relevant facts not being mentioned. I wont pass judgement there. Breaking the window….was the suspect refusing to comply? I find it odd that the suspect has a cop yelling at him certain instructions, and he can only say he was “"I remember being taken aback, recoiled and thought, 'What's going on?' I was being presented with pure evil, it was a chilling experience.” Well, golly gee. I am a bit skeptical of the victim, but I am thinking that the officers were very amped up and pushed the boundaries, but again, I am only going off of the article. I really think there is a lot that the guy is not saying, and of course he has the assistance of an attorney, so obviously he isn’t going to make any comments that are unfavorable to the case.


According to the article "In my opinion, the breaking of the window, the repeated use of the Taser and the manner in which Mr. Harmon was removed from his vehicle was clearly an excessive use of force and is unacceptable behavior," Hoffbauer wrote. "In addition to the use of force issue, the fact criminal charges were filed against Mr. Harmon, knowing his conduct was possibly the result of a diabetic emergency, was inappropriate to say the least." Charges can be dropped and they ultimately were. The breaking of the window could be justified if the man was refusing to open and was threatening or appeared to be ready to drive off. To me, it does look like excessive force and the officers were out of line. If that is indeed the case, the cops should be fully liable. The punishment the cops have received seems lax to me, and that leads me to believe there is more going on behind the scenes. If excessive force was used, they should be terminated and assault changes and civil suit should be brought. However, there are lots of unknowns here, so take it with a grain of salt.

 

X3

 

X3^

 

This is why you would never be able to make it as a cop. The number 1 priority is to get the intoxicated driver away from his deadly weapon ASAP. A vehicle is a deadly weapon. Talking just gives additional chances for the public to be harmed. You must meet any resistance with IMMEDIATE and OVERWHELMING necessary force.

He is in control of a deadly weapon... you seem to act like this is OK. Any sane department would get your head out of your ass or fire you real quick. You would get someone hurt. There is a time to talk and a time to act... a drunk behind the wheel that wont yeild and then wont open his door and exit the vehicle or obey commands... that is past talking.

Keep in mind I am probably the nicest and most laid back officer in my department that its still effective on the street. I get called Officer Friendly and Officer Rogers (after Mr. Rogers) but sometime you have to smash windows and slam people onto the concrete instead of flapping your gums.

 

No, I like to see the public protected and the criminals get justice. Typically, criminals share your attitude. I would not go so far as to say you are a criminal but you sound like one.

You do not have a right to drive drunk, disobey lawful commands, and resist arrest. No sweeping there, just criminal activity.

 

While use of force can be debated and you MUST get a drunk or dangerous person from behind the wheel. If you cannot get them to comply with verbal commoands or open the door by hand you MUST smash the window. To do otherwise is to put the public at risk and is completely unethical IMO.

For the rest... I have seen the lies people put forth about their stop. I have seen weak officers try to say something about force that was 100% neccessary. While these guys probably did some wrong you have to see the video to know the truth and judge them.

 

Yeah! Another "cop"/"force" thread...always fun! sub'd.

 

What constitutes a lawful command? A sick man that can't get out of his car being told to and not complying then beaten to shit? Fuck that, I'm not taking "commands" from any cop if I'm not doing anything wrong. We didn't get to vote on who upholds the laws in our communities so therefore I'm not being "commanded" to do shit by anyone. Just because the person is a cop doesn't mean he/she is worth a shit and I have to listen to anything they say. I'm supposed to take orders from a person that has less education and earns less money then I do and I didn't get to vote them in? Why?