cheapness?

I am in the same boat. I work hard - REALLY HARD. It shows and it pays off. I make really good money (more than my father ever made) and I am only 26. There are no unions in the IT world. I just work hard enough to save the company money and get projects done ahead of schedule while providing high quality work. My boss watches my back and I watch his - simple as that.

Unions have a purpose, but I agree with ndcouch - unions are costing companies unnecessary amounts of money. Unions should protect workers without going overboard.

I support non-unionized companies, especially in The South (yes, even Wal-Mart).

 

Im a consultant to the automotive industry. I've designed and installed system that build cars in Toyota, Mitsubishi, Subaru, volvo, BMW, corvette, Saturn, Mercedes, Ford, GM, and Honda. Trust me toyota does not make a cheap vehicle. Their quality control is better than anyones.


Drum brakes are only as cheap as the components they are made from and function quite well. Tractor trailers use drum brakes so they are quite capable of doing the job and exert plenty of force based on the larger surface area.

The fact that Toyota caught the tsb on the tail gate and instigated a manufacturing change is a testament to their quality control efforts. Other manufacturers would have swept it under the rug and forgotten about it until law suits came up.

Say what you will about Japanese based companies but dont forget all the other companies that supply those plants all their parts. They are often solely owned American companies. When toyota bought into Subaru in Indiana there was a ripple effect of million and millions of dollars that trickled into every supply plant that made bumpers and mirrors and glass and rubber. Many of those plants are American owned and operated. Mine is one of them.

There is no such thing as an American company anymore. GM build suzukis. Isuzu builds Chevys. Ford build Volvos. Subaru builds Saabs. and they all get components from GE who builds them in Mexico.

 

This has turned into a really good discussion. I now live in Michigan, and hear non-stop about the Big Three union worker "woe is me" sob stories, about how so many are losing their jobs and dipping into their savings to live. And mind you, I feel bad that people are losing their jobs to overseas workers...BUT....many people have to dip into their savings to live from time to time, but the UAW contracts being cancelled or not renewed are the fault of the unions...PERIOD. For so many years, UAW workers (and many other union workers, but we'll stick to the UAW for this discussion) have been grossly overpaid. I know of several workers that work at TNAP (Toledo North Assembly Plant) in Toledo, Ohio building Jeeps. Now these few people have serious drinking and drug problems, miss countless days of work, and are still paid $28.00/hr. when their sole job is to snap on a door panel and plug in a few electrical connections. That's it...no other responsibilities. The automakers simply cannot afford these ridiculous salaries and maintain a profit margin. I have nothing against workers making good wages, but do you know how many people would beat down the assembly plant doors to make $20.00 an hour non-union??? It's simply a matter of economics...the automakers are doing what they have to to earn a profit. But, I think it's great that the foreign automakers are building so many cars in the US and giving American workers jobs...unionized or not. the domestic three should be ashamed morally for outsourcing so many jobs, but it boils down to economics. If the Big Three would not renew the UAW contracts and hire non-union workers, they could pay American workers a still-decent wage, while maintaining their profitability, but of course, the logisitcs of replacing/training workers, etc would be a monumental task in and of itself, and would end up forcing shutdowns, etc....it's almost a no-win situation....

 

Like I said ,jealous!

 

There's one factor everybody forgot to mention: "GREED". It's the root of all evil. Corporate exec's, as well as most unions, get to share the blame here. However, do you honestly think by replacing union workers with non-union workers and paying them minimum wage or significantly less... will fix the big 3's problems? No way..the reason, IMO..consumers are buying foreign is simple... the big 3 make an 'inferior' product. However, if you reduce costs by "gutting" union contracts, this I don't believe, will result in an equal reduction of percentage in the sticker price of the final product; or will it be the magical wand that will inevitable cause the Big 3's problems to evaporate. Rather, this scenario has been created many times before, it's called: an exchange of wealth...labor's wages to 'multi million' dollar bonuses to a few of the Big 3's exec's. Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with an exec making millions in a salary or bonus, if what he or she does accurate results in the corporation making equal or hopefully better in equity to the shareholders. The problem that I have, as well as many, is when they do it 'strictly' off the back of labor...this I believe is criminal. To prove this theory, consider the nummi plant workers, they are UAW members and make a quality product. They are also well compensated. There 'high compensation' has not resulted in Toyota falling from #1 in sales. Granted, Toyota corporate has been concerned about wages going up at the plant at a higher rate then profit; however, if the UAW over steps there bounds, which I believe they have at times in the past, then the result will be an unfortunate one. ..the plant closing and Toyota relocating overseas. After reading some of these posts, some might come away with the conclusion that labor is the 'sole cause' and the downfall of the Big 3. Rather, I believe, there is plenty of blame to go around by both management and the unions. Hopefully, they both can figure it out before it's too late.

 

The problem is that it is not as cheap to live in places such as, say, California (where with rent, student loans, etc., $32/hr starting - just gets you by) as it is in the South. My Union does a great job of making sure we get plenty of overtime and also makes sure that AT&T does not drop our health coverage (~500/mo), etc. At $8 - $10/hr, you would be pissing and whining out on the street here in Los Angeles. In the last 3 years they have raised the starting wage by more than $6/hr. Apparently in NC/SC, etc., this is luxury, but in California, it is a necessity.

Starting Net Admin jobs offer around $20-25/hr out here, which is a F'ing joke. My Union with all of their "pissing and whining" is able to offer a pretty good living.

I also dont understand this insinuation that if you have a Union behind you, that your uneducated and dont work hard. Ive got a BA, BS and 3/4ths of a Masters Degree. Try my job for one day; you'd work plenty, believe me.

Not all cases are the same, and not all unions are 100% bad.

Ted

 

I don't think that all unions are bad, but we are talking more about the manufacturing unions...

...this being a Tacoma Forum, I am talking specifically about auto manufacturing unions. The TOP one that comes to mind would be GM and UAW. UAW workers are costing GM more money than Toyota workers are costing Toyota, and Toyota builds a better vehicle.

flyman767 is correct. If the unions don't take the money, then management will. The greed has to stop for the greater good of their company and peers otherwise companies like GM are going to implode.

I am not saying that unions are completely bad and they need to go away. I am just saying that business as usual isn't going to cut it anymore for these companies and unions.

 

I think this also boils down to perspective. I have a problem with many but not all unions. Further more, my problem is not with the idea of having a union, but with the way they are run. Having said that, if i lived up North, and did nothing but turn a couple screws all day long then got to drive home in my brand new Cadilac and sit in front of my 52 inch plasma with nothing but a high school education, i would LOVE unions. If you are enjoying the benefits of the unions, you're not gonna complain. On the flip side, if you are a large company and you have 14,000 workers, all demanding at LEAST $25-$30 an hour, plus full benefits (which is an enormous cost to large companies) your literally hemoraging (sp) money. If you see that you can build a plant in the south and cut your cost by 25 to 35%, its just good business to do that. Union workers may be sittting pretty but at the expense of thousands of other union workers whose contracts are not being renewed. Unions are "de-industrializing" the north, and in turn are cause industrial booms in the South, as well as other countries. This is not an opinion, it's an undeniable trend that can be seen slowly but surely starting since the 50's. The existance of unions if fine, but only to step in when workers are beiing abused or rights being taken away by large corporations. As it stands right now, it pretty much takes a vote from congress and presidential approval to fire a union worker, no matter how shi**y of an employee he is, and thats just stupid. Unions should exist to produce fair and descent working environments and employment practices, not to extort large companies.

 

I agree with ndcouch. I feel they have served their purpose- that they were needed many years ago- but now are obsolete. I know many people that work in an industry and to keep working there HAVE to join the union and pay an amount of their hard working money to the union and do not want to. I have read that many unions have gotten fat and spoiled. lol....now how did we get on this? j/k

 

I guess ill bow out, considering the fact that we are only talking about UAW.

If it were only the case.

 

flyman, ndcouch....great insight. Though I must add that I wasn't trying to imply that ridiculously expensive labor is the major problem with Detroit automakers. You are definitely right about corporate greed. If the Big Three saved money by cutting labor expenses, they would simply piss it away on some other exec's bonus or something like that. I guess I should have expounded earlier by saying that what they need to do is cut labor costs ALL THE WAY AROUND and spend that money or improving their products. Here's an example, years ago, Ford had that huge recall for replacing ignition switches due to vehicle fires. They had cheapened the ignition switches by changing a part to save 12 cents per vehicle. Now that doesn't sound like much, but when multiplied by 500,000 vehicles, that amounts to a savings of $60,000. Now, by saving $60,000, they were having several fires. Now as for the cost of having to replace switches on said 500,000 vehicles, how much has Ford really saved? But the Big Three aren't smart enough to realize the big picture....They haven't figured out that they CAN build a quality vehicle that could compete with Toyota/Honda, and still be a profitable company, but they keep pissing away money in the wrong ways......

 

The bottom line is the products. They need to make better more interesting more fuel efficent vehicles. I would like to buy domestic brands but most lack quality and resale value.

 

A2, brownie, i fully agree. It's no secret that foreign cars (for the most part) are better than domestic cars on so many levels.... quality, engineering, interior design, exterior design.... everything. This has been common knowledge for decades. i don't understand the big three's mentality. it's not that they are incapable of competeing, they just dont. I would love to buy domestic, but i dont want to deal with the quality issues. Plus, the big three are years behind on design and asthetics. there are a few exceptions... whenever i see a Ford super duty i want to hump it, the new mustang looks great, and they finally got the taurus to stop looking like a massive pos. but for the most part they cant even design an attractive looking car with the exception of higher end cars like the corvette or the viper. If you ask me they need to invest more in their engineering dept's and cut back on the assembly line cost. But have you seen the new GTO? i'm sure its fast but it looks like a sunfire from the 90's. The GTO was the first car that could out run the corvette stock, and it looked like it ate Fords for breakfast. Now it looks like something my grandmother drives to get groceries. I have to say kudos to Ford for going retro on their modern muscle cars. anyway, the big three have ALOT of ground to cover before they can compete with toyota, honda, nissan, bmw, mercedes etc... on any level

 

deviating from union topic... I think the big 3 focuses too much energy in selling the public shit that doesn't matter like heated cup holders, on star, foward looking radar, butt massagers, you name it. all at a good competitive cost. Marketing gimmicks. consumers buy into it. then consumers discover the real stuff that matters like the electrical and mechanical engineering piece is crap. QC is not there, and their vehicle is in the shop. they've been dooped.

I believe people buy from certain manufacturers (Toyota) because of the vehicle itself even though it doesn't come with all the smoke and mirrors, while, on the other hand, you have buyer's that buy option packages (gmc, ford, chevy) and they pay for it in the end.

 

also, i'm tired of the people with the, "buy american, die american". "buy american or you're a commie". but, these are the same people with 90% of their property from wal mart made in china.

 

third post in a row... maybe one of you union experts can answer this question: since most of auto manufacturing is mechanized and computer, why do auto workers get $30+ benefits an hour? literally, what skill do they possess and utilize in today's auto manufacturing environment to earn that wage?

 

To put it simple, they posses the ability to all quit working at the same time and not start back until they are satisfied. Thats their most important skill and the only reason they get what they get.

I aggree with you about all the bells and whistles. Unfortunately historically reliable companies such as BMW are starting to follow this trend. I pick on BMW specifically because i use to own an old one and loved it, so i hold them to a pretty high standard. Unfortunately the cars they are making now don't compare to the cars they made 17 years ago (which was when my car was made) I don't care if my seat heats up, thats just one more thing to break. If i can't deal with having a cold steering wheel in the morning, then i need to move to Jamaica, not put in a heated steering wheel. I dont need voice activated radio controls. if i'm to lazy to reach over and change the station then i deserve to listen to whatever sh*t song is playing on the radio. I want a solid vehicle, not a big mechanized money pit full of electronic gadgets.