Combining STS turbo kit and TRD S/C kit

How much installed. Tested.
ready to go. ?

 

if u have to ask...............................................

 

So I've come to learn. Was going through the installation manual and found it. Didn't see it initially, I now stand corrected. I'll check out the turbo to see if it has an intercooler that I missed, but I didn't see any in the parts list for the kit.

V8's are great and all, and if a massive block of cold steel is your thing, then sweet. But I prefer a smaller block with a blower of some flavor. That's a matter of preference.

This is almost bolt for bolt what I want to do ultimately. Obviously a different motor in a different truck. But it makes me happy that someone else has already done it. I'm keeping boost low initially, to avoid rebuilding the engine with forged low compression internals, which apparently he had to do. Also, I'm not a particular fan of nitrous. 7th fuel injector, maybe. Not nitrous.

The S/C would compound the turbo's boost, except that the waste gates of both the turbo and the S/C will prevent boost from exceeding the setpoint. So once boost reaches 6 psi, any extra pressure will get dumped off. At low rpm's, the turbo will make 2-3 psi at the S/C's intake. The S/C steps that up to 6 psi, and any extra air that is pulled in is blown into atmosphere through the waste gate. Moving air into atmospheric pressure from a 2-3 psi system doesn't take any appreciable amount of work, so the only work the S/C is doing is compressing the air another 3ish psi. Once the turbo comes up to speed, there will be 6psi at the intake of the S/C, which means the S/C won't be compressing anything, and therefore will be doing minimal work. However, as someone else pointed out, using the bypass valve of the S/C and some cleverly connected sensing lines I could just bypass the S/C compressor all together once that pressure differential goes to 0. Maybe. Depends on if there's a high and low side connection on the bypass, or just a low pressure connection.

Mostly it comes down to connecting boost and vacuum lines to the right places on the right valves. I've got a pretty little drawing in my notebook.

That's why I'm not relocating the turbo. Exhaust piping has to be either bolted or welded because of the heat; you can't just make do with some silicon elbows and rings. You have to get a pipe bender, and weld flanges on there all neat and pretty like. That is what I consider too much fab work. Or, I could just run the piping from the outlet of the turbo compressor to a different spot. As long as I keep it under 10-15 psi, I can get away with silicon elbows without any leaks. Piping and elbows is fairly affordable, easy to work with, and will get the job done. Which is why I was wondering if anybody has seen that turbo kit in person, and what are the clearances like.

 

I used to have the STS kit. Should be a decent amount of pictures for you, in the beginning of my build thread.

 

wow crazy amount of bends on that pic

 

The waste gate on the turbo only manages boost at the turbo and not at the manifold (if hooked up correctly). I don't know how it works on the S/C but If IRC, it has an internal bypass for low RPM's but it doesn't limit boost based off total pressure. You pretty much manage boost on the S/C by changing the pully size.

Again, your bolded claim just isn't right. The S/C will always compress the turbo's boost. There will never be an "equalibrium" where the S/C is free spinning.

Not being a hater, just making sure you know what you are getting into. When calculating boost, ITS NOT S/C + Turbo = Total Boost.

From: http://my350z.com/forum/forced-induction/460903-twin-charging-and-compound-turbo-charging.html

Looks like you are more interested in drivability and low/mid range power but just FYI, for total power, a properly sized turbo will generally give you more top end than a twincharged setup. If you can do a S/C bypass and S/C pulley clutch disconnect, you can have the best of both worlds.

You can read up more here:

http://hellionpowersystems.com/index.php/compound-boost-resource

Also consider your fuel upgrade, a tuner, and a new high performance clutch.

 

I love my V8 Taco, beats S/Ced 2nd gens like they hit reverse!

LS1 and you got no big hunk of iron. Was thinking about twin charging or compound, but I have learned in the past that the KISS method is ALWAYS best for multiple reasons.

I have built so many different types of setups its ridiculous.

Best bet IMO is a properly sized standard mount turbo.

 

I'm a 1st gen and in this position, I already have had the TRD S/C, and got the CXRacing turbo kit really cheap.

StAndrew is giving it to you strait, and take note of the formula he gave you, I had to be educated that compound boost is not additive in a linear fashion (2psi turbo + 2psi S/C does not = 4psi total, it will be more).

Others will mention its not of performance value-- I tend to agree with this to an extent. Many an automotive expert or journalist will comment how the twin charged methods of past are gone as turbo spool has gotten much better over time, but interestingly VW is coming out with a twin charged setup. If its being done to run a crazy large turbo, a nitrous system could be used for same effect. Where I don't agree with the nay-sayers is personally, I love how my Tacoma TRD S/C gives me power instantly, and as much as I like my turbo IS300, there is too much lag to make it the Daily Driver king when yellow lights hit and power is needed right away. I feel this is the reasoning behind VW's little twin charged setup.

I plan on twin-charging, not because its the right thing to do, or the best performance route to take, and surely isn't keeping aligned with KISS, which I agree with, but because of all the years I've been into modding, and of all the setups I've seen, the 5vz and this CX kit lends itself to twin charging with such ease, it feels like a crime NOT TO. So many guys of various platforms have twin charged, spent months fabbing, cutting, welding, combining, buying piles of expensive parts, sourcing crazy bypass valve setups, studied, trails and tribulations etc. My truck came S/C'ed, and the turbo kit is crazy cheap IMO (relative to turbo kits spanning the mod scene), looking at the layout, it looks like minimal modding to the T/C kit to fit around the S/C- it just begs for it, like an un-used catch can lying in your garage says "put be in your wifes car, common, do it!"

I'm into modding more for the engineering appreciation and fun with the guys, so again I don't think this is the end all of mods, I don't think it beats a V8, or S/C by itself, or T/C by itself, but again, its just fricken begging for it out of the "cause I can and its fricken awesome" angle.

For me the main challenge will be twin-charging over compound- I don't want the S/C to compound-- to me to make this at least somewhat performance minded for what it is, to reap the benifits of the T/C, I want to take the S/C off line when the T/C builds boost, so I need to get stronger on coding and a controller like an Arduino with some hardware to manage the S/C's bypass valve. Its been pointed out that the S/C's bypass valve may not have the capacity to completely bypass all of the air, it won't be perfect, but for a tinkier like me, it'll be pretty awesome when I get the instant low end from the S/C, and pick up great power as the RPMs climb and the much more efficient T/C picks up the boost load and makes more power pound for pound.

What holds me back is simply time, lazyness and honestly, my truck is such a good DD right now, it would really suck to complicate that with the addition of a bunch of parts, needed tuning, testing etc.

 

Careful, the 1st gen S/C's don't have an IC and the S/C compounds the heat as well as boost.

Not sure how the S/C bypass works, couldn't help you, but you need an clutch driven pulley to disconnect the S/C. At 4-5k rpms, the S/C sucks 20-30hp right off the crank

 

No I/C with the s/c not an issue, the t/c kit is intercooled, s/c will be bypassed, and when the s/c is bypassed, its parasitic drag is much less than its loaded 30hp drag, so I would keep the pulley as is and try to devise a vacuum tank and solenoid setup to trick the TRD OE bypass valve to do what I want. I might not even have to code the arduino with lots of inputs, my AEM fic has a mappable 0-5vdc output that could be translated to a pwm for the solenoid with a few lines of code.

 

No I/C can be an issue. Def want to consider meth injectors. And the drag will still be substantial, bypassed or not. Are you sure you can bypass the S/C with the internal bypass valve? Im not sure how it works

 

The guys on whyturbothat.com twin charged an s-runner (3.4) it made 40 or 50 more rwhp than the s/c only. however there was so much torque it spun the wheels constantly. He changed to turbo only and had a faaaast ride.

 

I'm not a fan of the TRD S/C not being intercooled on the 1st gen, but it is what it is and people have been making do with it. I can go out right now and beat on my truck, S/C'ed and non-intercooled. To intercool the TRD S/C for the first gens is a big mod, I've only seen one guy that purposely bought the 1st gen (grey two piece) S/C for the 1st gen taco and cut it open, installed a tranny cooler and made it intercooled like the 2nd gen tacos-- it was an impressive mod, one I can't undertake with my black version of the S/C. The CX kit is intercooled, so when the S/C is brought off line, the turbo charged air is intercooled, the S/C not contributing to boost and heating air. The S/C is just for low end grunt.

I'm not going to debate what is better, as already said I don't think this mod is the end all of awesomeness and the gold standard best route to go, but rather what is more feasible. The truck is already tuned for the S/C non-intercooled. Putting a turbo on and setting up the electronics to run the bypass correctly IMO would only make things better, and from there all the internet arm chair warriors can flig sh*t about how the bypass valve still makes the S/C generate a pound or two, or how a free spinning non-boost making S/C sucks a danky amount of HP. But its a mod path that keeps cost down and is more feasible than starting to get real crazy with a lot of additional parts. To install a clutch type pulley system is rocket science compared to hijacking the OE bypass, I'll live with a few lost horses in compromise. I don't have empirical numbers, but the free spinning S/C when being bypassed can't tap a whole lot of HP, or our S/C'ed trucks would get crap MPG even when always off boost, maybe magnuson has the numbers (they have a good bypass video for you as well). But IMO its probably as worthy to argue over as getting light weight pulleys for $$, then take all day to install just to get a few measly HP.

 

Maybe Im coming off wrong; Im not nay-saying, we just need to be aware of possible issues and make the necessary adjustments. A S/C IC would be nice but its not required. Denso IK22 plugs will be needed if you don't already have some and meth injectors will help a ton (<- highly recommended).

Are you running the 7th injector and will that work with the S/C bypass? Bigger primary injectors can be very hard to tune at idle/low engine speeds with the stock ECU/piggy back so keep that in mind if you need bigger injectors. If the 7th Injector works, that will help a ton with tuning.

The S/C clutch shouldn't be that hard but I have no idea. Could be impossible as the S/C shares a drive pulley. Maybe not right away, but I wouldn't dismiss a clutch on the S/C pulley just yet and maybe install it later down the road? Let me look for it but there was a twin charged Supra (might have been an AE86 corolla ??) and the guy said it was a huge difference when he installed the clutch (didn't look hard either).

How big is the internal bypass valve? IIRC, its only designed to equalize pressure in either side of the screws when idling. May not be able to accommodate higher speeds. I dont know, just keep this in mind if your engine isnt responding how you expected.

Make sure you due some dyno runs with your S/C and map boost vs intake temps vs torque vs RPM to see when you where in the RPM range you want to bypass the S/C (about where the torque curve starts to drop and temps start to grow exponentially). Of course it will be trial an error and will also depend on the Turbo to find the best RPM to shift but this should give you a good starting point.

Good luck. Ive been considering this idea myself; depending on how it works for you I might just copy

 

I rocked water/meth, then started using E85-- thats the good stuff, but still have a 91 octane tune (AEM FIC lets you switch between two maps simply with a switch). I have two step colder plugs, 170 thermostat etc. Blah stuff IMO, didn't phase the ping one bit, having a good EMS that controlled fuel accurately and retarded timing in the right places did the trick.

AEM FIC. S/C bypass is mechanical, actuated via manifold vacuum/boost, similar to a wastegate or BOV. With a vacuum tank ,check valve/s and solenoid I could make it a big challenge/project and try to code from scratch a setup that takes in various inputs to trick the bypass (feed it vacuum) when turbo boost spools up, but even simpler is use a feature already in the AEM FIC.

No sir, running the AEM FIC. Controls larger injectors like the Greddy EMU, but also has the primary o2 skewing capability of the relect split seconds = great larger primary injector tuning and also closed loop boost a/f control ability + live tuning capability and datalogging view-able with AEM software. I'm running 625cc injectors without a hickup, most of the map un-touched from the AEM auto map generation.

Its a nice feature found on a number of OEM S/C'ed boosted cars, but I'm not counting on a custom setup being worth the 1-2psi reduction in compound boost and 5-8hp gain in power. Besides stopping the screws from spinning, you then need a bypass valve to go around them as well--- the one we are already using and is already somewhat limited in flow--- so then we are talking about big mods to get a bigger bypass installed. This goes down the typical car modding slippery slope of diminishing gains per $$ IMO.

Pretty small, maybe has a diameter of 1.5"? I've locked it in bypass before mechanically for giggles and ran the truck hard to see what the truck is like N/A (bought it S/C'ed). I didn't notice boost, but a customtaco's member noted in his testing that it can't handle diverting 100% of the boosted air and a pound or two is still produced with a wide open bypass. I will vote this negligible in the big picture of things when trying to pull off this twin charged setup without breaking the bank.

S/C'ed IATs are hard to take (additional sensor needed downstream, but again it doesn't matter to me, truck is already tuned for the non-intercooled S/C, like a gazzilion other non-intercooled TRD S/C'ed 1st gens). Second is the S/C would only power some low end areas as it will speed up the spool of the CX kit's GT35, the S/C will spend very little time being part of the 5vz's powerband-- thats where I agree people modding from scratch (no TRD S/C, no T/C) to NOT do it, I think there will be a very small area 'under the curve' where the S/C does some work (probably not worth the $$$ of added the S/C to a T/C), but since I already have the S/C, and already have the T/C kit sitting in the garage, and I appreciate the instant boost of the S/C, I look forward to the performance a twin charged setup will give me. Actually I really like how when I drop the gas pedal, its like a V8 switch kicks it, right away. It then has the typical S/C powerband from there-- to then add on top of that the pro's of T/C... I think this mod will be pretty fun, though there will be plenty of nay-sayers (but that would make me wonder how much of them wrench- one drive in the turbo IS300 I had a boost gauge dangling, not fully installed yet, I had some kids in their mom's ford explorer give me a thumbs down and talk shit when driving by that it was ghetto. Hmmm, a turbo RWD manual trans torsen LSD 6 point caged IS300 that scorred well in STS SCCA "ghetto" from kids in a mom's Explorer--- yeah, gotta take some peoples inputs with a grain of salt- some people just gotta hate even when they don't have a foundation to stand on).

As far as tuning the bypass, IMO it would be beyond my coding experience to add x2 MAP sensors, RPM input, solenoid control etc and make a control setup. But thankfully I already have the AEM FIC installed, with mappable 0-5vdc output, should be fairly easy even with street pulls to find a nice spot to start weaning off the S/C via bypass manipulation via solenoid and vacuum tank and let the CX wasteagate compensate and work around.

Like all things automotive, it isn't going to be as simple as imagined, and there are plenty of forum peeps to help highlight the possible issues ahead such as yourself, so please don't get my tone wrong, I appreciate that you and others think it through and bring up possible issues, but as I explained earlier, a lot of stuff has been addressed (I have 625cc primaries running like champs, AEM FIC PNP, tuning experience etc.)

Sorry OP-- IMO though not far off topic from your post, it still feels a little de-railing.

 

Not a turbo expert, but "stacking" a turbo with a supercharger has been done at least twice that I know of (VW has a current motor with this setup in Europe and someone from Japan did it in the 80's) with mass production vehicles. I know in both cases though the supercharger was bypassed once the boost from the turbo kicks in to a certain level. This would lead me to think if you want your setup to last any amount of time you'd want to, at the very least, explore bypassing the supercharger above a certain level of boost from the turbo. Maybe even dig into a diagram of how those companies did there system which may give you clues on how to do your setup. Bypassing the supercharger probably has to do with the way fluid dynamics can get real tricky when things are being compressed then fed through a potentially restrictive set of impellers or maybe even the bypass itself (the supercharger). The airflow would be turbulent, and potentially surging, if boost built up anywhere in the system before the engine even with the turbo blow valve operating properly.

 

Sounds like you got it worked out. Get a build page up and make sure you take good notes

 

Forgot to add these pictures.





























That was the non TRD truck. The red one posted earlier also had the TRD s/c and a built engine. These pictures are very good for reference purposes.

 

Nice set up. We have done several super turbo here at the shop. Next put a water/methanol kit on it and you'll be cooking!