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Cop shoots off duty firefighter

Discussion in 'Law Enforcement Officers' started by Forster46, Feb 25, 2014.

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  1. Mr. Brown

    Mr. Brown Well-Known Member

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    Under California Code:
    "Serious bodily injury" means a serious impairment of physical
    condition, including, but not limited to, the following: loss of
    consciousness; concussion; bone fracture; protracted loss or
    impairment of function of any bodily member or organ; a wound
    requiring extensive suturing; and serious disfigurement.

    I think that just about perfectly fits into CA's definition of serious bodily injury, authorizing the use of deadly force.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2014
  2. mipawlus

    mipawlus Broja OG and CEO

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    i like this back and forth, it shows that people actually can back up their thoughts. I like learning the different policies (i'm sure the USCG is different from the houston pd is different than the small town, usa - all according to the threat levels) and thoughts based on location and occupation/history.

    i will start by saying, as i did in my previous post, that regardless of the situation, this is incredibly sad.

    i accept that a police officer's job in inherently dangerous and that anyone going into it has to be very careful and vigilant - a decade in the USMC in various combat zones and other less publicized fronts. family in LEO and i hear the stories and see the reports. got it. dangerous life. inherent to the occupation. just like a firefighter. different job, same stress levels.

    i accept that i, nor anyone in here, was at the scene and cannot say what happened should have happened or not.

    i accept that every agency policy regarding escalation of force is different.

    i accept that everyone has their own opinion.

    i'm just saying that MY PERSONAL BELIEFS AND EXPERIENCES, based on the videos in the OP, say "shit, let's try something other than a gun because this dude has fists of lead". as an LEO, I (personally) assume and expect you to be in as good of shape and relatively competent at martial arts for just such an occasion. i (personally) have high standards for LEO officials because i do associate/hang out with/am related to quite a few.

    mr. brown's 5 foot rule is first heard for me and i am currently researching it, as i research the number of LEOs killed by their own weapons (in 2011, according to the fbi, it was 3 http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...eloniously-killed/officers-feloniously-killed) and am forgoing any sites that could be misconstrued as biased.
     
  3. mipawlus

    mipawlus Broja OG and CEO

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    i am playing devils advocate because i enjoy sparking conversation (note: not trolling). sometimes i have a narrow perspective on something and if other people can help broaden my horizons, i am open to learning. i just don't like to see people demonized without cause. as i used to tell my analysts - prove that they are who you say they are. guy celebrating his wedding and got a little handsy on a cabbie or drunk ff out looking for a fight.

    now that you put a definition to it, i am a little bit more inclined to see the justification. the most PC state and they line it out for even a dumbass like me. although i didn't see him ground an pound and am going off of what jared said about the reconstructive surgery.

    that being said, there are a lot of variables that aren't shown as clearly as the video. was the ff provoked? was he out looking for a fight? in which case, barring any ground breaking footage/evidence, i stand by my original statement of none of us were there, none of us know the true, full, and unedited story, and this is just bad juju all around.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2014
  4. k9cop

    k9cop if your not the lead dog, the view never changes

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    Here's my thoughts. You would like to hear from a cop, you would like to know what this officer could have done differently, you would like to know why he didn't tazer this man or pepper spray or baton a seriously drunk man who just fought with a cab driver, you would like to know why this officer did what he did? Become a cop, get into this situation then feel free answer all the questions asked. Sorry I can't be more help.
     
  5. mipawlus

    mipawlus Broja OG and CEO

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    like i said, i'm not leo. i only have my experiences overseas (and we were never one on one). i appreciate your input and can see where that mindset would come into play. now let me ask you this. is there any way that you would have broken contact, gotten distance, and drawn down on the ff before resorting to shooting?

    as for mr browns policy that there is no policy:
    https://go.mpdconline.com/GO/901_04re.pdf

    an example of said policy citing 3 feet is the minimum distance (pg 4). good to know.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2014
  6. k9cop

    k9cop if your not the lead dog, the view never changes

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    I always try to gain distance. I have a dog, I can afford to do this.
     
  7. mipawlus

    mipawlus Broja OG and CEO

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    very well. i've seen the k9 units in action, both here and in iraq/afg. talk about some mothertruckers who are scared of dogs.... and thank you, Domc, badphish, and mr brown for your service. my broke marine ass appreciates it! this here is and example of the primary reason i am not going to the police academy.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2014
  8. k9cop

    k9cop if your not the lead dog, the view never changes

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    thank you for your service. It's a shame about not going too the police academy. We could always use great people. it truely is a great job. However, there is public scrutiny it's all just part of the job. I just do the best that i can and give 110% everyday.
     
  9. DEEVON911

    DEEVON911 Semi-pro

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    Probably has been said. But a cop is always a cop. Off duty or not. A lot around here work security for places, and would respond to things like described.

    Shooting seemed justified to me. Don't punch in a cops face, and you won't get shot. Regardless if he should if been able to subdue him. Guy is a firefighter, you have to assume he is in some sort of decent shape. Maybe he was a trained fighter. Who knows. Cops are people too, who have families. They just want to go home after work like the rest of us.
     
  10. SoCaltaco65

    SoCaltaco65 Well-Known Member

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    Although this happened in Kansas? Also Ca. has an " Equal Force" law that would come to play in this scenario, however fearing for ones life typically trumps it.

    Tragic either way, Firefighter did not seem to be fighting back until the ODPO started wrestling with him.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2014
  11. DEEVON911

    DEEVON911 Semi-pro

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    I disagree with this. Looks like the officer was trying to get his arm back to cuff him, the guy pulled his arm away, then then the officer tried to use more force to subdue him by kneeling on his head. That's when the wrestling started.

    It is sad. Either way. Life lost and a life forever changed.
     
  12. Front sight

    Front sight Well-Known Member

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    Spot on answer.

    We had a local columnist who is very critical of LEO come to one of our defensive tactics classes. He stated that the 21 foot rule was b.s. We gave him a holster and a training gun and had him try it out. Even with him knowing what was going to happen he was unable to fend off the attacker- numerous times.
    Just that one class changed his view point on how dangerous our job can be.
     
  13. SoCalTacos

    SoCalTacos Penis Bird

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    The only mistake, in my opinion, this police officer made was taking a security gig where you may have to defend yourself and others against inebriated people. If you lack the skill to physically defend yourself and others, don't take the job. The drunk firefighter could have been any one of us. I know, for myself, I've done some stupid things when I've been drunk. Things I would absolutely never do if sober. This is one of the reasons I don't drink.
    I understand the fact that there's always someone bigger/badder/stronger than me...that's when I would call in the reinforcements.
    Just a horrible situation for everyone involved...I hope the firefighters family can find some closure from this situation and the police officer can get over what he has endured.
    I really do respect police and firefighters for risking their lives on a daily basis.
     
  14. gopens48

    gopens48 Well-Known Member

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    So basically what your saying is that as a police officer, I should be able to take on anyone? You say you understand the bigger/badder/stronger thing, but I don't know if someone is a better ground fighter than me until we get to the ground. I can't tell just by looking at someone, if they were an all-state wrestler in high school, or if they are a martial arts expert. I don't know any of that until the fight starts.

    Then you say that he should have just "called in the reinforcements". Even on duty, that's easier said than done. In the middle of a fight for your life, you'd be amazed how difficult it is to key up your radio or push your emergency button. It's even more difficult for the guy in the video, considering he was off duty and I'm not positive he even had a radio on him. How can he call for reinforcements? Tell the drunk guy that wants to fight to hang on for a minute while he calls his buddies?
     
  15. SoCalTacos

    SoCalTacos Penis Bird

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    Nope...but since you ask, i would think since you're going to be arresting a guy for assault, you'd call in the reinforcements before even attempting to apprehend/arrest the guy...especially when you're off duty. im not LEO so im just commenting out of what would be common sense to me...not sure what protocol is.
    i will comment, however, from an experience when i was falsely detained. completely cooperating with the officer until the situation got sorted out...but the guy decides its a good idea to damn near twist my shoulder out of socket when trying to handcuff me. my natural reaction was to pull my arm before it snapped. if he attempted to curb stomp my head into the ground like the officer in the video did (which it seems to me where things got out of hand) AND i was inebriated, i could see me attempting to defend myself.
     
  16. Mr. Brown

    Mr. Brown Well-Known Member

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    Really? I'll let my department know. Just because you can't find it doesn't mean it isn't there, The guy was from Kansas not DC Metro, and you may want to look into the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) for the OC. As far as I know everybody that works in a public service capacity are supposed to follow MSDS instructions.

    Here is a well known story along the lines of this conversation:
    http://www.examiner.com/article/uc-davis-cops-violated-manufacturer-s-guidelines-for-pepper-spray

    I believe the off-duty officer was working as a security guard. You'd have better luck looking into the security company's policy for what they even carry. I couldn't see very much on his belt.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2014
  17. k9cop

    k9cop if your not the lead dog, the view never changes

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    Hmmmm ok...Lets take this one step at a time. Sometimes In Law Enforcement there is no time to call for "back up" when responding to a crime in progress. Sometimes your there, you need to handle business before someone gets hurt then, you call your HQ requesting a back. Hopefully there is one available. Our county S.O. cant wait up to 30 minutes after requesting a back. So, none of us are really sure about radio transmissions here. And honestly dude Drunk people are so hard to deal with. I mean really hard. Usually the first thing a drunk person screams at me is "I have done nothing wrong." They always scream at the top of their lungs. I have said it before and I will say it again. There are two kinds of people I hate in this world, drunk people when I am sober and sober people when I am drunk..
     
  18. DEEVON911

    DEEVON911 Semi-pro

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    People keep bring up he was off duty and was working as security. That may be, but he's still a police officer. Around they call it working a "detail" they are still police officers with full arresting powers and all that goes along with it.

    Places pay the officers as a deterrent more than anything, as that tends to steer the stupid away seeing a cop sitting at the door. But if something comes up, they are the police, and they react as such.

    IMO any uniformed officer working anywhere should have a radio. Here, some do, some don't. Unfortunately the cost factor comes into play.

    Also those same people recording the.video talking about his "menacing" stance, would be the same people asking where are the police as he beats the shit of the taxi driver over a couple dollars. The police showed up, albeit alone with no radio. But showed up nonetheless.

    Another thing that always gets me is the I was drunk argument. I have been passed out knock down drunk, and have had run in's with police. NEVER once would I have swung on a cop. I've done some really stupid things in my younger years, but I find the I was drunk defense stupid. If you're an asshole, you're an asshole drunk or sober. Just my $0.02
     
  19. Mr. Brown

    Mr. Brown Well-Known Member

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    All good points Deevon. I watched in the video, but couldn't tell if he was wearing a security uniform or his police uniform.

    It is funny that these conversations always revolve around what the cop could have done wrong. No one ever seems to notice, or care, that if the subject complied he would not have gotten shot. At least the officer was cleared quickly this time.

    I feel bad for the family of the fire fighter. I can't imagine how hard that must be knowing that the death of someone you loved was brought on by something so dumb as getting too drunk.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2014
  20. SoCalTacos

    SoCalTacos Penis Bird

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    Agree, mostly. However, the firefighter ran away...officer chased. Seems like there would be ample time to call it in. And I hear you regarding drunk people...reason why I don't like to drink or be around belligerent drunks. I've had to come to the aid of drunk friends that were being douchbags...can't stand that shit.
     
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