CV shaft Needle Bearing Issue? Sanity check me please

I have a 2019 Tacoma DCLB 4x4 Sport. 84k miles

All of a sudden I have a weird unbalanced sensation, feels like its in the drive train not the tires or brakes. I would describe it almost as a flutter that I can feel in the gas pedal and through the floor board. Worse around 35-45mph.

If I engage 4x4 while driving, it stops immediately.

I read about the symptoms caused by the poor needle bearing design, and the recommended ECGS bushing replacement. There is a lot of play on the inside of the CV axle where it goes into the clamshell. Can wiggle it up and down noticeably.

I hear most people describe the needle bearing issue as a "vibration". I wouldn't call it a vibration exactly, but more like I described above.

The thing is I have no lift, and the entire front diff assembly was replaced under warranty 15K miles ago because of a howling noise. (long story) But I did not expect to deal with any issues from the needle bearing so soon and with no lift.

I have a long road trip coming up, 2000 miles, and towing 3800lb camper. (have towed with this setup 6 or 7 times and its great).

I ordered the Yukon version of the bushing and Yukon removal tool cuz I can get them on Amazon next day and want to work on it this weekend.

Anyways, does this sound like it will fix my problem? Need a sanity check.

Thanks

 

Yes, it sound like needle bearing.
It should fix the issue.

Do NOT be alarmed when you install the bushing and still have a good bit of play in the CV movement.
It has to have some play. There has to be some room between the CV and bushing for diff fluid to enter and lubricate.

FWIW, my truck is all stock, and I too had to replace the needle bearing with a bushing.
The failure seems to occur more frequently on lifted trucks, but can/has happened on stock trucks.

Also FWIW, I used 85w-140 and had my differential puke fluid from the breather once the weather turned cold.
85w-140 is what ECGS recommends.

That said, guys that use

$28 75w-90 Synthetic Gear Lube - 1 Quart (Pack of 2)

75w-90 don't seem to have that issue.
And they also don't seem to have any issues running that weight either.

 

Thanks for the input, appreciate it.

I went down the viscosity rabbit hole today too and decided on

$28 75w-90 Synthetic Gear Lube - 1 Quart (Pack of 2)

75w-90.

I'll be sure to post an update on how it goes.

 

Did you order a new CV shaft seal for the diff? National P/N 710596: https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=1927202&jsn=266

https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/...asterpro-axle-shaft-seal/mpb0/710596?q=710596

 

No. The seals on there are only 15k old so I was planning to reuse.

Thanks for the P/N tho - Maybe I can get one in time on Amazon

 

^The seal is easy to damage during bearing extraction/bushing install. I'd put the odds at 50/50 you'd get a leak if you don't replace the seal.

Check if your local O'Reilly has it.

 

Good tip, thanks

I was able to add one to my Amazon order with the Yukon parts

 

To hopefully give you a small piece of mind:

- I have not read a single report of the stock needle bearing failing.
- The presence of a “flutter” or vibration is not hard evidence that the bearing is failing.
- A needle bearing is likely a better type of bearing for the use case than a bushing. High speed, low load, high tolerances.
- This forum has a fair bit of FUD.

Is your truck modified?

BTW, I don’t know what a flutter is. It sounds like you mean a vibration.

Also, note the axle carries little or no load unless you are in 4wd. There is little to worry about while towing your trailer on the road in 2wd.

 

Then you should read some more.

I can agree with this.

Not really, Needle bearings do NOT take well to side loaded forces. The CV does put some sideload forces on the bearing. lifting the truck increases this issue.
But even in stock form, there is some sideloading of the bearing.

Sometimes, Yes.
Sometimes, No.

And sometimes, shit happens. And some of us have to deal with it.
Then we like to pass on our findings, and knowledge to others.

 

@TnShooter, please link a report of the bearing failing (and not during removal).

I am aware of the reference to bearing side load in the EGCS FAQ and that’s why I asked the OP if the truck is modified.

Can you explain why you think there is more side load than the stock bearing can withstand? I can’t say there isn’t, but I will trust the Toyota engineers until I see hard evidence to the contrary.

Bushings are typically used in high side load situations like crankshafts and lathes. Needle and ball bearings are more often used in places like differentials and transmissions, albeit I have much more motorcycle wrenching experience than trucks.

 

I had to replace my needle bearing on my truck esrlier this year. I wasn't really feeling a vibration, but at <25mph I was hearing a noise similar to a very badly cupped tire rolling, changing in colume and pitch between 10 and 25mph (above 25mph too much ambient wind noise to hear it).

I replaced the bearing with the ECGS bushing and it went away.

I had also ordered a front wheel hub bearing assembly in case that turbed out to be the culprit.

Was somewhere around the 40-45k mile mark when replaced. I had been hearing it get louder and louder for about a month prior to replacement.

Been about 10k miles now, no noise.

Trd or, not lifted.

I would advise buying the needle bearing removal tool and the insertion tool for the bushing. And at least grab a factory diff seal in case yours gets damaged. Better to have it just in case for the $20 it costs.

With the needle bearing removal tool- before you even bother putting it in, take a grinder to the back (inside diff) facing outer edges and put a decent radius on them. In the ECGS replacement thread there's been at least a few members who managed to get it fitted in behind the bearing race without grinding a radius into the tool, and I spent some time trying myself, but it was like 2nd or 3rd attempt to get the thing lined up and the bolt threaded into it once I had ground the backside down.

 

That bearing in your picture looks fine. Did your closer inspection find an issue?

 

@gudujarlson I thought so, too. None of the needles were ralling out, they all spun freely with light finger pressure even after I cleaned the gear oil out with brakleen, but I went from a very loud rotating sound (as I said, like a really, really badly cupped tire on the front driver side) to back to not hearing that noise at all with replacement.

 

Toyota literally had a TSB on bearing failures.
They even had a new design (longer) to help prevent this in the future.

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2018/MC-10142876-9999.pdf

Upgraded parts comparrison
https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads...ibration-thread.152173/page-184#post-13323869

 

Thanks for that. I had not seen the TSB. I have seen the thread you linked though.

My impression though is that the TSB is old and does not say anything about a bearing failure. Noises and vibrations are not necessarily failures. It depends on the eye of the beholder.

 

^Correct, some people simply find the noise and vibration objectionable.

Keep in mind Toyota's priorities aren't aligned with yours. If the bushing worsens fuel economy by 0.1 mpg compared to the needle bearing, Toyota will keep the needle bearing.

 

There was one just recently. Cage gave up and 4 needles went into the diff. Had to pull the diff and open it up as they couldn't get them to fall out the drain hole. TW's search engine sucks.

No, flutter isn't hard evidence of a failing bearing.I would agree that a needle bearing would be a great option...if the one Toyota uses didn't have a .050" tolerance. The ECGS bushing isn't your normal brass bushing. It's steel with an oil impregnated high density plastic inside. ECGS has this bushing in use for at least 12 years, on thousands of trucks, and I've never heard of any failures. BTW, ECGS' tolerance is .008"...and it's a little longer for more support.

Sure, this site has it's share of FUD, this ain't it. Maybe you should do some research before talking of things you don't know.

A short video to increase your knowledge base: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOvoM5irtEc&list=PLaX0YktJvGQuk-Xge30aZX-EXwvlKNUVK

 

After my truck got its lift… I felt and heard it pretty much right away. Bought the ecgs bushing and 50k miles later slid it in. Then I noticed a difference. The vibration and noise, although slight and tiny, went away. My needle bearing came out with a fight, so it got pretty chewed up, but from what I could tell it was fine.
I think I’m in agreement with @gudujarlson, in the sense that it doesn’t need to be changed. But I would still change it. Just because it feels better.

 

Not that it’s the point of this thread, but you had something else going on. The thicker fluid may have exacerbated it but that fluid by itself is not a problem. Due to the ADD the fluid barely even gets warm in 2WD. Way too many people run 85W-140 with no issues to say otherwise. Currently I have 85W-140 in mine with the ADD deleted which means the fluid is always circulating and running at full temp, and all is perfect.

 

I saw the bearing as same overall dimensions but shorter needle rollers? It was the ECGS bushing that was longer.

Furthering the discussion on TSBs, they kept using the bearing in 3rd gen’s as we all know and they had another cyclical vibration TSB. The solution was to install TRD Pro diffs in non TRD Pro trucks. Why? Because the spider gears actually fit the carrier properly and so they keep the CV running true while it spins in the bearing. The other models have loosely fitting spiders, which is stupid, because then it relies on the bearing to stabilize everything. Which works until it doesn’t.