Drive Shaft Vibrations Solved Step-by-Step

Well crud. Nothing like paying top dollar for a new toy and having it broke right out of the box. How you say.... f*ck. Since we're a LEO family with a few attys and ADA's, I'd probably start here:

"The Washington State Motor Vehicle "Lemon Law" is designed to help new vehicle owners who have substantial continuing problems with warranty repairs. The law allows the owner to request an arbitration hearing through the Attorney General's Office.
There will be no charge for the arbitration process. At the hearing, the arbitrator will decide whether a consumer's claim meets the requirements under the law."

I'd get a new truck, compliments of Toyota. Yeah, I know, major hassle and huge time commitment and unless you happen to like court rooms, could be a major pain in your backside. Just throwing it out there to ya.

When my local driveline shop spin balances drive shafts, they run the angles perfectly straight, as their machine ONLY checks for BALANCE, not necessarily conflicting vibrations created when at funky angles due to lifts, but since you're bone stock, and Toyota has already done a bunch of work, seriously, I'd call the Washington State Attorney General, 800-551-4636, and at least speak to them. Perhaps they have already dealt with similar cases and have further knowledge, since your local Toyota dealer has no more tricks up their sleeves as you say.

 

Ok thanks alot for the help, just picked up my drive line, and the guy at the shop said to bring the truck and he will measure the angles and run it in some software they have and it will tell them what needs to be done. I will keep u posted if you like. Thanks again

 

Oh heck yes, keep us posted! MAKE SURE they give you the angles in writing so you can post them here. What a great comparison, a stock 2013 run on a powertrain simulation. Oh heck yes we're interested!!!!!!!!

Assuming the txfr case output flange is "zero" vertically (up and down), get:

a) first shaft downward angle (angle falling down from txfr case flange at zero)
b) second shaft downward angle (should be further down (bigger number) from first shaft)
c) pinion flange as it relates to txfr case flange (# of deg's pointing up or down from txfr case flange)

That info would be MOST interesting!! Especially since your truck is post-TSB with different trans mounts, shafts, and leafs, your numbers would technically represent Toyota's ideal perfect world as best as they can achieve. I'm drooling.....

 

Fedz: are you planning on lifting? I've read a few posts from people that had vibes with a stock truck and then they went away with the lift.

...so maybe a modest lift could fix your vibes! I'd be so jealous.

Plus if you do plan to lift in the future fixing vibes now could be a waste of time and money.

Oh yeah, and welcome to the vibe club.

 

My vibes went down after lifting but not gone. I lifted the rear first and then did the front and played with the coilovers height. With the rear lifted 2" and the front lifted maybe an inch I got the best reduction in the 5 to 25 MPH vibes. Hard to say if that means anything because the intensity comes and goes seemingly on it's own day by day. Any little thing seems to change or not change it. Just thought I'd share, and I have a CB drop and shims that I haven't even started messing with.

 

Nah not planning on lifting.

 

Here are the numbers using the T case as Zero first shaft is 5.7 degrees second shaft is 6.3 degrees and diff. Is 0.1 . Shop said my drive shaft is fine and after calling mechanic shops they think it is the torque converter , fun fun fun. Will check with a tranny shop tomorrow and see what happens

 

I think the TC is the problem too

 

Fedz, thanks for the numbers! Confirms that, generally speaking, the output flange and the pinion flange want to be more or less perfectly parallel, or just a tad (0.1deg) down, and the first shaft and second shaft where they meet at the carrier bearing want to be very darn close to straight BUT not perfectly straight to keep those u-joints lubed (5.7-6.3=0.6deg CB operating angle). Cool. And that's with a stock DCSB 4x4. So....

When we lift (yeah I know Fedz is stock) we have to correct the rear pinion back to parallel with the output flange, and adjust the CB down to get those two shafts nearly in line with each other. So we're on the correct track anyway.

About that torque converter.... quick search led me to this person getting a NEW truck compliments of the dealer, with 25-35mph vibes, including during deceleration, check it out:

http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/2nd-gen-tacomas/87938-transmission-shudder-2.html

 

I just send my stock Drive-shaft (parted) to Slee off-road so they can use it to build me a two piece shaft with the D. Cardon joint aft of the carrier bearing... I am confident after couple years of research and $$$ that this should fix all vibes: Take-off shudder, 25MPH vibe and 55MPH vibe.
Point is: why doesn't the 1st gen have the same issue? look underneath one and you'll see why... it is "almost" impossible to fix this shit mess with replacing trans mount (although that did cure 90% of shudder, but not the rest), rear springs and new drive-shaft (done) UNLESS you sit and fuck with the angles for weeks to maybe get it "just right"... that joint eliminates the need to get the angles perfect.

.. I'll keep this thread posted.

 

Good God man, you guys are animals and gluttons for punishment.

My OME full kit is arriving Tuesday, and you guys have me scared shitless (literally, I haven't taken one in like two days).

Wish me luck. Because I don't think I have what it takes to troubleshoot a severe problem.

And good luck to all of you with this issue.

 

Hey JiggyZ, thank you for your input, and I can fully understand your lack of output (not taking a shit in 2 days). We're just all pissed off because it's maddening as hell to mess with this stuff for months and still not hit the sweet spot, and why the heck don't other trucks have the same problem, and it's not fair whine complain bitch more complain snivel etc. If you went with a FULL front and rear kit, with ALL the parts from the same manufacturer, then in my experience I've seen that usually all this angle crap has been figured out in advance by said manufacturer and you, technically, "shouldn't" have any problems.

And hilux30, you are dead nuts on the money: a double cardan driveshaft is a frickin' miracle god-send. I'm still suffering from the blinding nuclear sunrise from a certain forum member just to the east of me when he finally ditched his vibes by installing a double cardan shaft. Seriously, you either mess for months with shims, or, uh, take the $haft and get a double cardan. My double cardan was installed after I had all my shims just perfect, and I never went back to change them, so I'm currently running with angles perfect for shims but fucked for a double cardan, and ya know what? The double cardan just doesn't care. I'm sure I'm putting a bit more stress on those cardan joints than I need to, and I will change the angles eventually to match what a double cardan wants (no CB drop, and rear pinion pointing UP and DIRECTLY at the second half drive shaft, just like those pesky pre-runner setups). But until I get back under there, hilux30, you are absolutely correct.

If you have the $$$$, just go cardan from the start. If you don't have the $$$ and have lots of time, it "is" possible to get that perfect sweet spot angle combination with shims, just takes lots of trial and error. This forum will point you to the ideal angles for either a pre-runner or a 4x4, or when all else fails, what you want to ask for when purchasing a double cardan. Oh, and I guess we're now including the torque converter issue as a side note, thank you Fedz.

Either way you go, I say, with full conviction, f*ck the vibes.

 

That's exactly how it all went down... After the install and if all is good, I should take all my receipts and file a claims suite against Toyota, for inherently designing the shaft wrong and aggravating the hell out of us... one can say: in an effort to cut costs, they ditched the joint... I should talk to someone about this.

 

tscot, got some numbers brother.
rear pinion - .35 down
first shaft 7.15
second shaft 6.7

still got 3.0 degree shims fat end forward under the leafs. still getting pretty bad vibes from 20-30 and 50-65 or so. the vibes got worse when i flipped the shims from skinny end to fat end forward. the numbers are looking alot better but the vibes are still consistantly bad.

 

Dmeko0, hate to mess with your mind / free time / etc, but here's a copy of an edit I just did this morning on the very first post of this thread, see what you think...

I haven't been able to determine yet why some trucks like one method, some trucks like another, and some trucks (mine) worked with both, but here's the edit quote:

"Edit again: way too many pages and posts to get right to the point for those of us looking for instant answers, but TONS of fantastic experience here shared by all users! Latest advice from several mechanics quite familiar with lifts, all with years of Toyota experience: They ALL say to tilt the rear pinion UP so that it points directly at the second rear-most half of your drive shaft, as perfectly direct as you can get it. For those with angle gauges, zero your gauge on the second half drive shaft, just in front of the pinion (or thereabouts, not crucial), then, using a small flat bar (metal 6" file works great), place flat bar against rear pinion flange and, keeping your gauge at the same orientation as when you measured off the drive shaft, measure the rear pinion flange. You want to read 90deg, indicating that the long line of the drive shaft is perpendicular 90deg to the short line angle of the pinion flange and thus your rear pinion is perfectly pointing physically slightly up and now directly at your rear half shaft. After a lift, this will require you to use leaf spring shims between your axle and leaf springs, usually with the SKINNY END OF THE SHIM WEDGE FORWARD, held down by your u-bolts. Get the shims with slots, not holes, so you only have to loosen your u-bolts enough to slide the shims in and out without losing the orientation of your leaf spring pack centering bolt nicely snugged into that hole in your flat axle bracket. (depending on your lift, the first time you install leaf shims you may need to remove your leaf pack centering bolt and replace it with a longer bolt that usually comes with your new shim kit. Use mega good clamps on your leaf pack to make the job of removing / replacing that bolt easier (think of dropping a loose deck of cards on the ground, leaf springs everywhere really sucks). How big of a shim? Damn good question, read this full thread to answer that one better. Then, the next adjustment is to DROP your carrier bearing. Using your angle gauge, zero on the first half drive shaft, before the carrier bearing, then measure the second half drive shaft. You want to get those two drive shafts as perfectly in line as possible, in other words, your two measurements want to be as close to the same number as possible. After a lift, this will require you to lower your carrier bearing using shims on the two carrier bearing bolts until you get the two measured numbers to match. This will of course mess with your first adjustment back at the rear pinion, but not by too terribly much so usually doesn't matter. The general consensus now is that this arrangement will most quickly fix vibe issues, yet does put a bit more stress on your u-joints over time (decades), and if you're good and take your Toy off-road enough to flex your suspension you'll lube your u-joints nicely and won't have any short or long term problems (come on honey, I HAVE to go to the desert this weekend, I need to lube my drive shaft u-joints to keep my truck safe for taking you out to dinner next week !!!!!! ). And if all this makes absolutely NO sense, just as I was sooooo completely clueless (wtf is a pinion, I thought that was called a differential? what's a flange? ouput shaft? what the fuck is a pre-runner? where's the transfer case? what do you mean you only have 2-wheel drive? huh? etc, when I started this thread, so please read on. By the time you get to the last page and latest posts, this edit will make perfectly crystal clear sense and you too will be a Taco drive line expert!"

 

nice! glad to see another option for fixing! i was getting damn close to your original theory and not seeing any difference. not that i still dont appreciate it, i like many have no clue what i'm doing, just trying to save some money. otherwise id just get the double cardon. props to you again my friend for continuing to help others even though your vibes are fixed. the world needs more Samaritans like you. i plan to exhaust many options this weekend and i'll report back. lord willing i'll be reporting no vibes! wish me luck!

 

I haven't posted in this thread for a while and I never did start changing my factory driveline angles to try to get rid of my 5 - 25 MPH vibration.

My vibrations seem to be completely gone though, and here's what I did.

Lifted the rear 2" with an Icon AAL and factory overload left in. Vibrations slightly better but no real change.

Lifted the front 1.75" with Icon coilovers and UCA's. Vibe the same as before any lift, and also had a new slight take-off vibe.

Installed OME 8mm CB drop. Vibes completely gone as far as I can tell. I also put on Duratrac tires which roll with a little rumble compared to the factory tires, but I can't detect any vibes coming from the driveline anymore. Maybe this weekend I'll get under there with the angle finder and see what things read just out of curiosity.

 

Update on the install of full OME KIT w/ 886 coils up front (in anticipation of my DO offroad bumper/no winch)w/LR UCAS and Dakars in Back-you know the one I was scared shitless of doing.

Day 1: My in house mechanic said there was no need to order the struts preassembled, since he could do it-and he did, but it took a while, since we had to salvage all the parts off of the old assembly. Money well spent here to get those things done for you IMO. 2 hours.

Anyway, got the angle finder and took all sorts of measurements of the original drive shaft, per the thread. 1 hour.

Completed the install of the front on day one, probably 6 hours total.
So he finishes the front says, Jon, drive her home, we will finish tomorrow. I thought he was crazy, but the truck drove very well, with just the front and no adjustments-go figure-I was encouraged.

Day2: Finish up the back. I was all ready to take her for a spin, but mechanic says hold on there, we gotta put this other part in,( carrier bearing drop)-so he does.

Truck drive great, no problems. I can tell just by looking at it that the angles are nowhere near the same. I took it in this am for alignment got 0,0,3 +/- with LR UCA in Nuetral, no problems, no waiting. So, so far so good. Many thanks for the input on this thread and BJmoose install thread, although I gotta tell you, there was way less grunting and trouble shooting than I was led to believe.

The only real problem was the removal of the UCA bolt. We found my inner fender was in the way, so rather than bending it, as has been recommended, we went to the dealer and got 2 new bolts, cut the other ones off, and reinstalled backwards (also recommended here and by wheelers), so the next time we won't have this problem.

So right now I am waiting for settlement and the ultimate impact of the DO bumper in a few weeks. The truck looks great and is either level or has a slight rake, even before the bumper install, so here is hoping the bumper does not bring it down too much.

Thanks for all of the help thus far, and I guess it is better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. Keep your fingers crossed.

 

did you need to install axle shims?

I'll be installing the same into mine this weekend; 886 & dakars with the CB drop.

 

No axle shims. Don't even have them..and here is hoping I won't need them.
I keep listening for any little thing. I start to imagine a vibe, but there just isn't one. Still early yet, don't want to jinx it anymore than I already have.

I did have one question on the angles:

When you zero out on the front TC Flange the absolute measurement is somewhere in the 85* range. Once you zero out and start taking measurements on the drive shaft, I am at a loss as to how you guys come up with measurements in the single digits for these since they are almost at 90* to the flanges.

I don't have my measurements in front of me but I want to say they were in the mid 80s and certainly not single digits, what gives?

BTW, I do remember, that both shafts lined up at the exact same angle relative to each other. I took this measurement many times any they were more often than not exactly the same with up to a few .10s difference at most.