Electric panel question

Hoping someone here can steer me in the right direction.

I would like to replace some of the breakers in my main panel. I am comfortable with branch wiring, but haven't changed a breaker out before, so just looking for a little confidence boost and sanity check.

I see a lot of "the breakers will say the name on them" but these do not. I see that the panel is a ITE Imperial Corp panel, but that name seems long-gone and that Siemens breakers would be the right brand?

For the top one (garage) - I am the most confused on. Obviously breakers have moved on from whenever it was installed (1979), and there seem to be gfci, afci, and combos... There also seem to be versions with and without the neutral pigtail. But I think I need this:


The next three seem more straight forward- but I see two types- NCL and CL... but a tandem 15/20, tandem 15/15, and a tandem 20/20...



Any additional suggestions on safety or gotchas when there is also solar in the panel?

 

@soundman98
@Delta09

 

Man this is a tricky subject. Siemens acquired ITE in the early 80's, so in theory a Siemens/Murray breaker would work? But man, I honestly I would budget for a new panel. Not exactly what you want to hear.

The whole Cutler Hammer/Square D/Siemens-Murray breaker interchange thing is very controversial. In theory they fit in each others panels, but there's enough differences it can cause a fire.

 

Why? Lots of trips? Loose? Arcing evidence?

Sounds silly, but have you looked on ebay for your 'brand' breaker? I've stripped out perfectly functioning breakers from panels being removed for upgrading (like changing 100A to 200A) and listed the breakers there and they sold like crazy.

Everyone I know who has ArcFault breakers find they can be pretty annoying, including me. I even removed one for the Fridge (dedicated circuit) because every time there was an operation on the power side (power company reclosers just doing their job) it would trip. And we travel enough I didn't want to risk the fridge being off just for that.

Just a thought.

 

I would REALLY like to replace the whole panel. When we bought the house, we had to rush to get solar installed in the NEM2.0 cutoff window, and the panel is within whatever distance to the gas meter, so we would have had to move one or other, and didn't have time for either.

 

Hmmm, tricky scenario. Can you pull that 15/20 tandem breaker and see what brand it is? That looks like the most modern one in that panel.

 

It's a longer story- but the garage circuit tripped a few times over the weekend while I was running the table saw, and since then the lights on the garage circuit and the circuit next to it have intermittent flickering. I called electrician, and he told me to call the utility, who told me call an electrician.

 

My bet is you got a loose connection somewhere. Heavy draw from a table caused a loose connection to heat up somewhere and it's rearing it's ugly head. That's my bet.

 

IF you only have two circuits with some flicker, an electrician is probably in order.

If both circuits are on the same leg, even more so.

Unless you have low voltage on that leg, (which would measure on all circuits on that leg) and high voltage on the other leg, which is classic of a bad neutral. That's a power company thing, usually on a service drop, commonly on an old UG that got nicked sometime in it's life.

If all circuits have flicker, the power company is also the 1st stop.

You don't have aluminum wiring do you? Not the service, out of the panel.

 

I didn't wanna turn the main off, and wasn't comfortable pulling that breaker without doing so.

These are the newest (ac/pool pump sub panel, and solar)

I bet you're right. Do you mean a loose connection in a box or in the panel? The garage circuit is pretty simple, it's unfinished and I can get to everything.

mmm, so toss the multimeter on each of the circuits and see what they are up to?

The original wiring is a mix of both aluminum and coper. I think the 12ga circuits are aluminum and the 14ga are coper.


That 20/20 doesn't look so great...

 

That newest panel looks like a mix of breakers in itself

It could be a loose connection in a junction box, or and outlet that feeds another outlet. Someone could have tied aluminum into copper improperly. Those metals heat up differently and cause all kinds of problems when improperly mixed.

That last picture, oh boy. I see a Murray stamped breaker, which was made by Siemens until they dropped that brand. Looks like that might be what you need to go with.

Not gonna sugar coat it though, you need to budget for a panel and rewire of the aluminum circuits.

 

those are all in the same panel. I haven't included any shots from the sub panel - which I assume were added after the main panel.

everything on the garage circuit is 15amp / 14-3 copper.

the circuits that I know are aluminum are the 12ga. I replaced every outlet in the house cause many where original and loose as hell. Didn't see any mixing of aluminum to copper in the boxes.

the last picture is the same four breakers at the OP.

I am ok with a new panel, but a rewire aint gonna happen.

 

So it looks like you got Eaton/Cutler Hammer, Murray (Siemens), ITE, and possibly a Square D Homeline breaker in that panel. Wowzers. I guarantee you any electrician that looks at that is going to have a stroke and quote a new panel. Please don't take this as me giving you shit, it's not.

Anyways, I would start tracing stuff on the garage circuit to see if there's anything loose or burned up. I'm betting that would solve your flickering issue.

 

nah, i used to see that a lot. ITE is a very 'standard' fit, so all of those breaker models do fit to the buss bar. it's sort of like mixing oil brands. not exactly illegal, but many people make it out to be. it's really just not ideal.

given the age, i agree that a new panel and new breakers would be ideal. the primary consideration here is that a panel change would update the main breaker(which still contain the same components like springs and heat-sensitive metals as normal breakers, and can still wear out), and correct any buss bar issues--most typically corrosion from age.


i don't agree with buying used breakers just to change the breakers.

used breakers are a very distant option, even officially, because there is no great way to test or guarantee that the new-used breaker wasn't subjected to any worse conditions than the old-used breaker it's replacing. the only places i've ever installed used breakers are for small repair jobs-- almost entirely ge pushmatic, and wadsworth panels. both were with the customers understanding that it'll get them running, but i'm using discounted used parts, with no warranty, and a panel replacement is really the more ideal option.



the first thing here is the troubleshooting. you had an issue in the garage, the breaker tripped, now you have an issue with two breakers. but are blaming the breaker.

this is similar to speeding through town, getting stopped and getting a ticket, then randomly marching into the mayors office, and demanding that he personally refund the ticket right then and there.


breakers do go bad, but they generally don't flicker. the main way they go bad is in the lever functionality. to turn them on/off, it becomes either increasingly difficult, or the lever doesn't 'catch', and it stays off more times than it will 'catch' and allow you to flip it back on. this is a situation where replacement of the breaker is ok, the mechanical components of the breaker were failing.

flickering at the breaker level tends to be with a poor/corroded connection at the buss bar, or a loose connection on the wire connecting to the breaker. that typically will have arcing noise or smell around the panel, and the breaker/wire will be warm/hot to the touch, and many times the breaker/wire will look 'greasy'-- the inner oils warm up and become outer oils. and a wire-only issue typically has melted insulation on the end nearest the breaker. if it's only a loose wire, you should be able to get away removing the wire from the breaker, strip back the insulation to clean copper, and tightening the breaker screw down on it firmly again(on older breakers, many don't tighten all that great on 14ga wire, so sometimes stripping it back double-length, and folding over the bare copper is required to get a solid screw hold on the wire).


if the breaker itself is greasy or buzzing, and the wire connection is already solid, this is a far worse scenario. for anything to get to that point, there will be damage to the main buss bar at that location. the only two options are to either attempt to abandon that breaker position and move it to a different spot in the panel while respecting phase arrangement, or outright panel replacement.




BUT: being that you specify that the circuit is a 14-3 run, and you're now having issues on another adjacent circuit, i would say it's not the breakers fault at all. it really sounds like a loose neutral.

all household panels are known as 'single phase', but actually contain two phases, typically referred to as 'A', and 'B'. this picture breaks it down a little more:


each row of breakers from top to bottom alternate which phase they're on. this allows for the situation as indicated at the bottom of that image, with the '10-3' wire. in lots of cases, this is done for splitting up circuit that are near each other. the difference between your house and the diagram is going to be 40 years though. say the 15A garage circuit, and a 15A office circuit that shares a wall with the garage. the original electrician would've ran a single 14-3 to an outlet on the shared wall, and then divided out the circuit between the two rooms from that point.

but also critical, that diagram is the current official code method-- where the breaker has a handle across both breakers. only in recent years has that been enforced. well into the 2000's, it's quite common for standard stuff like different rooms to use physically separate breakers, though has never been code compliant. so two separate 15A breakers would be used on the red and black wires, with the white being the neutral/return path, and the ground being the emergency return path. important here is that two breakers are sharing a singular return path. which means that if both circuits are having issues, it narrows down the problem to the area they come together.


i said all that to get into what i really think is going on-- i think the point where the neutrals split apart to feed into the separate circuits has loosened up(or before it, have seen plenty of installs where 2 circuits jump through 5-6 splices before splitting off to other rooms). this will cause flickering, because all the devices start to loose that return path, and has always been the most common failure i've seen in cases like this. if you've already experienced loose screws on outlets, you likely have more of them in the garage and that additional unspecified circuit, as well as loose splices behind the outlets that will need to be addressed.

the good news is that you should be able to address it yourself if you want to. the bad news is that it's going to be extremely time consuming. but should be readily apparent once you find the right bad splice. typically it'll be brown by that point, or when you go to pull the splice out of the electrical box for access, the wire nut will pull straight off the wires.

just be sure to cut out the current splice, and make the new splice correctly-- a good splice will allow you to tug on the wire nut. if the wire nut pops off if you tug on it, it's a bad splice.

 

Why is the main breaker depicted across the two hots? Just a picture, I suppose

 

@soundman98 - thank you for the very detailed post. I will dig into that circuit a bit further and look for any loose connections this weekend...

This morning, out of desperation, I turned off the main, and popped out the top four breakers and reseated them. Got everything turned back on- the lights haven't flickered all day. One of the breakers wasn't fully seated and I was able to push it down a little before popping it out.

So hopefully that solves things until I can figure out how to replace the panel altogether. I need to find what condition (emergency? and what that emergency is...) I am allowed to leave the panel location intact without having to move it or the gas meter. I've asked both trades, and they obviously say it's easier to move the other.

 

because it's essentially a 2-pole breaker. it interrupts both hots separately.

 

Have you opened up the panel and made sure all the terminals are screwed down tight?

 

Understood, just looks funny in the picture, not a big deal. Thanks.

 

Feel free to call me silly and useless, but ... if you are running lower total service (150 amps, for example) an electrician could get a new non-mixed panel with 200 amp service, or more if you want to run high-draw tools.

As to "mixed aluminum and copper?, be very careful to properly at the Al/Cu connections because of different expansion rates that cause connections to become loose.