1. Welcome to Tacoma World!

    You are currently viewing as a guest! To get full-access, you need to register for a FREE account.

    As a registered member, you’ll be able to:
    • Participate in all Tacoma discussion topics
    • Communicate privately with other Tacoma owners from around the world
    • Post your own photos in our Members Gallery
    • Access all special features of the site

Engine braking in cold temps drops engine temp?

Discussion in '3rd Gen. Tacomas (2016-2023)' started by EmergencyMedicalTaco, Mar 13, 2023.

  1. Mar 17, 2023 at 10:40 AM
    #41
    gudujarlson

    gudujarlson Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2019
    Member:
    #298083
    Messages:
    7,245
    Gender:
    Male
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2020 TRD Off-Road DCSB 6MT
    Kings, Dakars, SPCs, 33's, Mobtown Sliders, TRD Skid
    I might have been wrong about the effect of rolling resistance being too small to worry about. I found a reference that gave a typical coefficient of rolling resistance of 0.015. Given that we can estimate rolling resistance losses.

    Given:

    coefficient of rolling resistance = 0.015
    truck mass = 2000 kg

    The force produced by rolling resistance is:

    F = coefficient-of-rolling resistance * normal-force = 0.015 * 2000 kg * 9.8 m/s^2 = 294 N

    This is more than the aerodynamic losses! Can that be true? I've long assumed that at hiway speeds air resistance rules. Maybe I'm too used to thinking about this in terms of bicycles.

    Anyway, the adjusted engine braking heat generation is then:

    P = force * velocity = (980 N - 190 N - 294 N) * 27 m/s = 13,392 W ~= 13 kW

    This is approximately the same as the heat generated by an idling engine.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2023
  2. Mar 17, 2023 at 11:11 AM
    #42
    arthur106

    arthur106 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2020
    Member:
    #350416
    Messages:
    294
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Jacob
    Houston
    Vehicle:
    Black '10 SR5 4WD 5MT
    I was a bit short in my comments about this in my "edit", but I'll be honest and say I don't think I fully understand the thermodynamics of engine braking, i.e. where exactly the energy is going. Throttle is closed, and the atmosphere pushes air past the closed throttle, resulting in a large pressure drop (I've seen ~12 in Hg on aviation engines at idle, I'm guessing it's less while running 4,000 rpm..). The largest decelerating force (I think) comes from the cylinders trying their damnedest to expand against this vacuum. Then you have the compression and expansion phases followed by the exhaust phase.. Other than film friction with the lubricated cylinder walls, I'm struggling to see where heat would be generated or transferred to the motor. Am I missing something..? it's obviously gotta go somewhere.

    Also, my analysis was completely wrong because I assumed air was entering cylinders at 1 atm (open throttle). I'm guessing you can further divide my estimate by a factor of 3 to account for the lowered pressures behind the closed throttle.
     
  3. Mar 17, 2023 at 11:15 AM
    #43
    gudujarlson

    gudujarlson Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2019
    Member:
    #298083
    Messages:
    7,245
    Gender:
    Male
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2020 TRD Off-Road DCSB 6MT
    Kings, Dakars, SPCs, 33's, Mobtown Sliders, TRD Skid
    There's also friction caused by viscous forces of the engine parts moving through the oil and parasitic loses from the fan, alternator, etc. I can't think any others right now. I also don't understand any of these losses in detail which is why I think it is better to just use the law of conservation of energy and then assume the lost energy goes into waste heat inside the engine.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2023
    arthur106[QUOTED] likes this.
  4. Mar 17, 2023 at 11:32 AM
    #44
    gudujarlson

    gudujarlson Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2019
    Member:
    #298083
    Messages:
    7,245
    Gender:
    Male
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2020 TRD Off-Road DCSB 6MT
    Kings, Dakars, SPCs, 33's, Mobtown Sliders, TRD Skid
    @arthur106, I just read your edits and you brought up a good point. Part of engine braking losses might go out the tail pipe instead of into the engine coolant. I'm not sure how to estimate that without knowing the exhaust gas temperature and rate. Wouldn't the same be true of cooling due to the Atkinson cycle?

    One other thought is that it's not clear to me that cooling due to forced convection can be ignored event with the thermostat closed. I made the assumption that it is the main contributor to cooling and did't even think about the Atkinson cycle. Cooling due to the Atkinson cycle is interesting though.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2023
  5. Mar 20, 2023 at 2:06 PM
    #45
    GBR

    GBR Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2019
    Member:
    #285384
    Messages:
    367
    Vehicle:
    19 TRD OR
    So over the weekend I went to the local ski resort and paid attention to my temps, rpms etc coming down the mountain.

    Left the parking lot on a cold engine (no idle warmup) with heater set to high on defrost. Ambient temps were 28-32F with snow falling. It's roughly 7 miles and a 2000' drop to the bottom. Right about the time I reached the bottom the temp gauge was in the middle. Average rpm was around 2300 and minimal throttle was used.
     
  6. Mar 20, 2023 at 2:27 PM
    #46
    Phlogiston

    Phlogiston There are no victims, only volunteers.

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2020
    Member:
    #316170
    Messages:
    1,902
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Not Karen
    The wild west
    Vehicle:
    2016 SR5 DCSB
    Aesthetically Challenged
    Your front Disc brakes are sucking up all your engine heat, switch to drums.
     
    SR-71A likes this.
  7. Mar 20, 2023 at 3:28 PM
    #47
    gudujarlson

    gudujarlson Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2019
    Member:
    #298083
    Messages:
    7,245
    Gender:
    Male
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2020 TRD Off-Road DCSB 6MT
    Kings, Dakars, SPCs, 33's, Mobtown Sliders, TRD Skid
    It’s not clear what we can conclude from this. Are you saying you temp dropped or are you saying it stayed the same? Also were you using your brakes or using engine braking?
     
  8. Mar 20, 2023 at 5:04 PM
    #48
    GBR

    GBR Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2019
    Member:
    #285384
    Messages:
    367
    Vehicle:
    19 TRD OR
    Sorry, I typed that out quick.

    I'm saying my engine gained temperature going down the hill engine braking. It was a completely cold engine at start up, followed immediately by heading downhill. By the bottom of the hill was up to temp. Pretty much all engine braking, with a few brake applications for slick corners with virtually no gas used in the 7 miles.
     
  9. Mar 21, 2023 at 4:59 AM
    #49
    SR-71A

    SR-71A Define "Well-Known Member"

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2018
    Member:
    #255145
    Messages:
    7,837
    Gender:
    Male
    First Name:
    Zack
    Southern Maine
    Vehicle:
    2012 DCSB, TX Baja Edition. Barcelona Red
    255/85/R16 Falken Wildpeak MTs, Mobtown sliders, ARB bar, SOS front skid, Icon RXT leafs, extended & adjustable Kings, JBA UCAs, OVS wedge RTT, dual AGM batteries, Gen2 xrc9.5 winch, CB, GMRS, S1 ditch lights...
    You win. Well done sir!
     
    Phlogiston[QUOTED] likes this.
  10. Mar 21, 2023 at 5:47 PM
    #50
    Rusty66

    Rusty66 Ain’t Afraid

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2022
    Member:
    #408261
    Messages:
    1,443
    Gender:
    Male
    Rhode Island
    Vehicle:
    19' Limited 4x4 (01' TRD OR, 97’ SR5 V6, 88’ SR5 Extra Cab)
    I will assure the OP that the thermostat is not stuck open because if so, the pcm will throw P0128 code (thermostat rationality). Every time you start it there is a timer for how long it takes to get to 178 degrees coolant temp, then full temp. Even if the thermostat was out of calibration, let's say fully open by 180-185 degrees, it will turn on the MIL in cold weather.
     

Products Discussed in

To Top