F@#%@#g abs almost killed me

Just skipped right over Crom's post I take it

 

Glare ice is the problem. When you want the truck to come to a full stop is when it pulsates and blows you through stop signs. Ask me how I know.

 

I have been following this post and still have a tonne of snow and ice .
Give me some speeds or parameters that you want me to follow and I can provide a video to accomodate my theory that this ABS system is simply put - death waiting to happen . Should I waste my time trying to prove this to the non beleivers ?
There are 3 Tacoma owners I have been talking with who are willing to participate in the snow / ice brake trials using the factory installed brake system and the modification to eliminate the abs system . All 3 owners own short bed double cab 2005 and up , no lift kits or weight added to the box .
I need some parameters to follow mind you .
glare ice ,vehichle speed ,brake application etc etc .
after I am finished with analyisiss , would this really prove anything to Toyota or other members or would i simply be wasting my time and the 2 other guys who also drive in the snow who are willing to prove that modding the ABS saves lives .
I respond to all motor vehichle accidents in my area as a fire fighter auto X and as a training officer , this would make an excellent training aid for my next meeting .
Give me some parameters to follow and I will make a video to prove the abs system will kill someone in the snow .

 

Under 3-4 mph approaching stop sign. Apply further pressure to stop vehicle at sign is when this happens and brakes release. This has happened on flat surfaces. Low speed.

 

Could be a pissing match . Some have snow tires and some have all season .
Nevertheless , I beleive I can still prove that eliminating the ABS feature in snow and ice can save lives . Thats why I am here .arent we all ?

 

There are times you must have the wheels stop. It would be a pissing match, alright.

 

Yep, that's when it did it to me.

 

I highly doubt you'll prove ABS kills people in snow, anymore than trusting 4wd kills people, or trusting traction control kills, or chose to get into a vehicle kills.

Can it contribute to an already troublesome situation? Yea. I deal with black ice and pack snow since the early 80s, helped my parents on ambulance runs from ice/fog crashes in the day ... that there WASN'T ABS ....hmmm, ski in it ,plow in it,all that.

So now we have ABS and still people still cant stop. How did they ever get up those mountains. They all should have crashed? They never should've made it?

Focus on knowing its limits and ways to make it happen safely, all this talk of why it sucks /why it doesn't, will never solve the part about just figuring out it lengthens stopping distance in favor of having control, yet many people simply have it where ABS isn't going to get in their way.

All winter, 10s of thousand of skiiers and snowmobilers across Us and Canada, drive in snow. Every Saturday and sunday someone seems to crash, a local ambulance service has units out there on stand by. Snow definitely has a learning curve.

All I'm saying is have some forethought that ABS isn't going to save you necessarily , it isn't a magic safety wand, and yet if you get something like chains or tires that GIVE IT SOMETHING TO WORK WITH , the ABS dragon of death suddenly isn't so vicious.

Maybe the better tires will only bring you from a nasty 500' stopping distance to a 100' stop going down a hill or some variation of that on the highway, but at least you know it did improve stopping. Winter is always going to be treacherous, no car or tire combo yet has really, ultimately solved the hazards of winter driving unless you go with studs or spikes and stay on some ice.

Trust ABS? Bet your life on it? you shouldn't, don't try to deal in some absolute. See what is needed

Go down that icy, or wet packed snowy road from the mountain is the worst time, refreezes too, yet so many people in Suburus , jeeps, 3/4 tons, other cars,manage it. Find out, how, what works, things like siping tires, snow tires, some added weight, studded tires in places they are available.

Maybe a responsible driver should not have gone out, is responsible to chain up as needed, etc. A person has to know their own limits and experiences.... you cant buy a car or truck to give it to you.

I don't feel It's about who can drive with no ABS problems vs. who cant. It shouldn't become an issue.

 

As mentioned above by Tacoyota , It does come down to driving conditions and I couldnt agree with you more . What I plan to prove is that modding the ABS will actually benefit Tacoma owners in certain conditions , not all conditions , just certain conditions mostly in snow and ice . The system may work very well for slippery rain covered roads or muddy gravel but in snow and ice I am going to prove that the abs mod will work better than using the factory abs regardless of whatever tires are on the vehichle , what speed the truck is going etc etc .
Now I just need to back up my cause with a couple videos and requested parameters

 

ABS bypass switch FTW

 

I got some spare time in 2 weeks after my nephew's birthday. Think I'll do that, confirm the wire rest is simple electrical.

 

The parameters are simply factory ABS vs. mods or just pulling the fuse. Just test the truck wherever you want and post the videos with the same conditions at the same moment in time. Maybe test the truck at 10 MPH, in neutral vs. in gear. Go up from there in 10 MPH increments, still doing it in neutral vs. in gear.

I'll try a test on a muddy road with factory ABS factory Dunlop AT20's vs. pulling the fuse in a few days when the road gets muddy. Sure, it's not glare ice, but it's something to compare.

 

It seems Toyota at least acknowledges the issue with the inclusion of the " Multi Terrain ABS " system available in the newer 4Runners and Land Cruisers , too bad we don't get the same system

http://www.toyota.ie/innovation/safety/active-safety/multi-terrain-abs/

 

As far as the data and information I would like to compile, I am looking for real-world situations. Find the icy/snowy road conditions that seem to be the most prevalent for the problems. Find a straight area and put up an marker of some sort to act like a "stop sign". Approach it just like you normally do and make note of the following:
Distance from "sign" you first applied the brake pedal, and how fast you were going
Distance from "sign", and speed at point of ABS activation (At this point, if ABS engages, continue trying to stop, do not let off pedal)
Distance from "sign" (In front of or past the sign) where you actually come to a complete stop.
How far off center line are you (left, right, or still in center line) when you came to a stop.

Do this for both ABS active, as well as ABS disabled. You can disable however you choose, be it switch, or fuse pulling.

 

I pulled the fuse after sliding, ....ABSing through a stop sign at less than 5mph.
Got rid of that shitty VSC as well...I almost head-on'ed a cop in a turn, and my wife almost got mashed by a logging truck.
I wonder if Bosche ever tested that crap on mountain roads.

 

VSC triggering understeer is a sketchy feeling when you are in a right hand turn and the truck wants you to go straight

Been there , done that

 

Which law are you referring too? There is no U.S. federal law that mandates ABS brakes on cars or light trucks.

I've done my own tests before and after installing an ABS kill switch and I've certainly added to the record here in other threads with my experience. Near fatal conditions have occurred for me in steep declines with loose gravel while off-road and wash-boarded roads.

Bill for somebody who works in an automove industry, I would think you of all people would read a few NHTSA reports. Here, try this one.

The Long-Term Effect of ABS in Passenger Cars and LTVs, August 2009 NHTSA.gov

It's right here in a published document for all to read:

- page viii http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811182.PDF

Take back control of your truck, and install a handy-dandy-kill switch. http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/2n...kill-switch-mod-05-offroad-easy-way-pics.html

 

I do keep up with a lot of information, however nobody can keep up with every detail of every facet of the auto industry. In all honesty, NHTSA reports do nothing to help me run my shop or repair vehicles. Though I have read some upon occasion.

The problem with statistics is that they are never capable of being a guarantee.

Let us look at page one:

There is no information or indication that they took into account the increase in the number of people on the road, nor the changes in overall society that may have had an effect on the accident's like the increase in the number of cell phones on the road being used, or things of that nature. That being said, the bolded text above actually supports my discussion as it states "ABS is quite effective in nonfatal crashes, reducing the overall crash-involvement rate by 6 percent in passenger cars involvement rate by 6 percent in passenger cars." As well as "The combination of electronic stability control (ESC) and ABS willprevent a large proportion of fatal and nonfatal crashes."

On page 2 it states :

Obviously there are many pages left to read, and I will have to go through a lot to garner a better understanding of what they are saying, but from the first few pages it looks to me like it is supporting what I have said. However it also fails to mention any details about the drivers themselves. Did they know how ABS works, and how to operate it properly? On fact that has been discussed a lot when I was working for dealerships was that the salesmen failed to fully inform the customer about the car systems, and the fact that in the service department, 9 out of 10 vehicles that entered a service department had never had the owners manual removed from the plastic bag. There are too many variables to throw in to have a full and proper estimation of any of these statistics.

 

ABS increases stopping distances on loose traction surfaces , especially snow

Why are we still arguing this FACT ?

 

Funny how most of the supporters of ABS also live in areas that might see snow a handful of times a year, if ever.

The snow they most likely see is also the 28-32degrees snow, which is much warmer with much more water content than Workman's usual 10-15degree snow. The colder the snow, the lower the moisture content. Also, the colder the snow the slicker the roads become. Just because your Tacoma rallies through "warm" slushy snow, 28-32degrees, does NOT mean it does just fine in the snow

The TACOMA is hands down the WORST vehicle WORKMAN has EVER driven in the SNOW...ABS is DANGEROUS and PLASTIC bed make it SKETCHY to drive in cold, icy, in town conditions.

If you DISAGREE with WORKMAN, go on a TRIP to the cold below 15degrees AT LEAST on a snowy couple of days and listen to the ABS constantly engaging at extremely slow stops while you slide into ONCOMING traffic.

Then, LISTEN to your rear tires spin when in 2wd and on ICE and WATCH your speedo climb in speed as you DONT move anywhere.

Workman has NEVER had a car/truck/SUV act like the TACOMA in snow....it truly sucks ass in the winter. Workman has driven 15 winters in over 30 vehicles, and the ABS on the TACOMA is unfortunately the shittiest of them all.

END THREAD