Factory System Upgrade Order Question

Well, it is a truck that is my daily driver. I listen to all kinds of things on the radio from talking Podcasts, music on my phone, XM and stereo. As far as music tastes go, its across the spectrum. What I want is good sound that is clearer at a higher volume so if I am going on a road trip, the sounds will be good over the hum of the road or the wind noise from a cracked window.

Budget-wise I am not opposed to doing it in "sections" which will allow me to spend more money over a longer period. I am frugal but not cheap. Looking at places like Crutchfield who I think has good info and reviews on their website, but are maybe priced a bit high I can see spending maybe $300 on an amp or DSP? Probably $200 and under for some decent speakers? Am I too low on that stuff or ???

 

Yeah, Crutchfield is a bit more than other vendors, but they're an authorized dealer for everything they sell and provide a lifetime of support for their products. I personally avoid Amazon as they treat their vendors and employees very poorly, but have been happy ordering from Sonic, Woofers Etc, SSA, Parts Express and Madisound.

There are lots of amps out there with DSP, but you'll pay a bit more for 'em. Mini DSPs are cheap enough and easy to add later. I'd maybe save the DSP for later though. It won't be any good to you without an amp anyway. FWIW, there are quite a few head units with DSP.

Maybe reverse your speaker and amp budgets? You can get a pretty decent amp for $200, but staying at that point with speakers is going to leave a lot of options behind. If you're the DIY type, raw drivers may be the way to go if you're up to the challenge. You'll get a lot more for your money this way, but will need to do your homework. You can put together a fantastic 2-way set using raw drivers for ~$300...even $200 will get you something nice. You'll get less value buying a kit in a box, but it's less effort.

 

No you're not at all too low. There are a lot of good options out there at lots of different price points, but just like anything else you are going to get what you pay for with this stuff. I wouldn't worry about a DSP in that price point, because you won't really have the hardware to take advantage of one. I would certainly look for the best amp you can afford, and if you can extend your budget just a bit there you might be better served. In the day, budget builds were pretty much all I did because that was the clientele we had. You can do a lot more stuff with what is out there today than you could have just 10 years ago, so you are totally in the ball park. For me personally I have shifted to doing mostly high end stuff now, mainly because there is more money in it and I don't own a shop anymore. I do it mostly part time. My engineering job pays the bills and I do this mostly for fun. But as I said before, I didn't mean to hijack the thread and start it down the path to "controversy" as you say, you were getting some really bad advice in my opinion.

Rob, when you say you don't get it that is exactly the point I am trying to make. Deadening mat is a product made for and used by professionals that is being marketed to the amateurs. It has very little return for the investment on any mid-dollar system, and would be the very last thing I would ever recommend to anyone. But that was the very first thing you and Coma shot out there as the end all beat all product. That's all. Not intending to insult anyone, but Coma is putting out there that he's pulling 110db from his stock radio. It's nonsense. I am working a system right now with a Utopia 3 way active, and his front stage is going to be easy $5k. Is that what I am suggesting to anyone, No. He deadened the crap out of it, but for a system like that it certainly makes sense. So saying XY or Z sounds "amazing" is fine, just realize you may not have the best frame of reference as to what "Amazing" actually sounds like.

 

You're in the minority. You know that, right? What I don't get is your assertion that it doesn't work when the vast majority of those who use it seem to think it works just fine.

And you're just trampling all over your earlier statements. For the guy with the $5k front stage it makes sense, but for less expensive systems it doesn't? How could any of it make sense if it doesn't work? Please explain how spending more money magically makes it 'make sense'. I've been sort of biting my tongue here, but sound quality is NOT proportional to dollar amount spent on equipment. Sure, there's a floor, but it's lower than you think.

That said, I still look forward to seeing what you present to support these claims. FWIW, I did try and find that Crutchfield article you mentioned, but only found one supporting the idea that it does work.

 

In the minority here? Well yeah probably. And again I get it, you have drank the cool aid. All I can say to you is keep putting as much sticky goo in as you want, and thinking that this crap has anything to do with making a good sound system. It doesn't but you can keep thinking that. I am for sure not following how you think sound quality is "not" proportional to dollars spent. It absolutely is. Are their some bargains to be had sure, but hands down the better your hardware the better your system. You for darn sure don't see a lot of guys out their competing with $200 amplifiers.

The stuff for me is exactly what I have said it is pure snake oil, but for that guy who has done everything else possible, and is looking for that last little bit? For sponsored guys with unlimited resources? Yeah for that guy it might make sense, but only because he's done everything else. For the guy with $200 amps and $300 speakers it's way down the list of what else can he do. So for that guy this stuff is just a box full of sticky goo. Here's the crutchfield video I was referring to. Even this guy goes all go go gah gah over the stuff, but notice when he does the after shot, NO RTA. Hmm why would that be? Oh yeah and they are trying to sell this stuff.

http://www.crutchfield.com/Learn/video-reducing-road-noise-with-dynamat.html

 

I guess this is progress. We've gone from useless to it works sometimes. And maybe you don't like it because you've only had experience with some sort of sticky goo?

On the equipment comment, I'll just say some stuff is overpriced. And some purchase features they'll never use.

Why would he take the RTA off the dash? Rough gravel road maybe? Those AC RTAs are pretty flippin' heavy and bulky - and expensive. Maybe it was getting bouncy on the dash. Either way, that was a poorly-designed and executed 'test'.

 

My experience with it is that I used to sell it, and it sold great. Had it right out in front of the shop in a big stack for every newbie to see. I never said it worked, all I said was that if money was no object than why not. I even used to put it in some of my builds, but eventually I wised up to the fact that this stuff is just stupid. But to your point on the RTA maybe he took it off for rough gravel? Bouncy on the dash? Were not all those things there in the before shot? He took it off the dash because the results he got did not support what he was selling. The before and the after were exactly the same. That's why he took it off the dash. Even when shown, cannot recognize the right answer!

 

How do you know his 'results' did not support it? I didn't see the RTA after the Dynamat was applied. Nor did you so you assume that he's faking results. You've only shown that you can make assumptions. Bravo.

 

@rob feature Im interested in hearing more about he raw driver thing. I am not opposed to DIY. Actually I prefer to do it, but raw drivers is a new to me. Not much audio experience.
Thanks!
DAVE

 

Well, there are a few ways you can approach it. Knowing what sort of crossover setup you'll be using is key. If you'll be using active crossovers, you have a bit more latitude. Active crossovers are electronic crossovers in your head unit, amp, or in a standalone box. They're typically highly-configurable...or at least more so than passives. Most wind up using passive crossovers which are little boxes which separate high and low frequencies and usually come with component kits. They can also be purchased separately and matched to raw drivers once a driver set is chosen.

For what it's worth, quite a few of the packaged sets out there use re-badged raw drivers from oh, say, drivers marketed to home audio enthusiasts. A good example would be the NVX XSP 65 midbass drivers which are part of the XSP 6 Kit. This is the same midbass driver as the SB Acoustics SB17 - just with push terminals. The tweeter is the SB Acoustics SB 29. So for ~$200 you get essentially the same drivers without the crossovers - which double the price of the kit. Alternately you can buy the NVX rebranded versions individually, for a bit more money, and have a grill pre-installed on the tweeter & push terminals on the woofer. By the way, this is considered a fine pairing between these 2...active or passive. I've heard nothing but good things about it. This however is just one example of a practically infinite number of combinations.

Working with raw drivers has its ups and downs. Maybe the biggest pro is that your selection increases immensely. The biggest con is similar in that your selection has increased immensely and narrowing it to what will ultimately go into the car may take a considerable amount of effort. You'll want to learn to understand Thiele/Small parameters - at least the critical ones so that you can make informed decisions. Basic Car Audio Electronics is a worthwhile place to get your feet wet.

But if you choose to proceed down the rabbit hole, the next step would be determining the driver size you want to use. It's time to actually start shopping then. After narrowing selection by size, those T/S parameters which are meaningful will come into play. I'm not going to attempt to try and touch on all that here, but off the cuff, things which will come into play will be Fs, SPL, Qes, Qms, Qts, Vas, Re, Sd, Xmax, Znom, and probably a few I'm forgetting. That's probably where it starts sounding overwhelming and that's fine. That's why most choose kits. Nothing wrong with that. Just trying to illustrate that it will require some effort. Oh, and you'd want to be considering frequency response as well. That's not a trivial one. Worth a mention is that you'll typically want to cross a driver roughly an octave above Fs in this context (especially for the tweeter). I just mention this as some frequency response information is misleading and can lead to choosing an inappropriate driver and trying to figure out where you went wrong.

Also keep in mind that many drivers use non-standard car mounts. They're usually close enough, but may not line up to pre-made adapters, may be deeper, may have oversized baskets, etc. As I typically make my own baffles out of cutting boards, that doesn't matter as long as I don't exceed depth restrictions.

If you haven't bailed on the idea by now, I'd suggest it would be a good time to start unraveling the mysteries of the T/S parameters and thinking about how you'd like to manage your crossover work. I'd personally want an active system as it's highly-tuneable, but to each his own. It will probably be cheaper to stay with a passive system if that's a consideration.

edit: above Fs, not below. derp. Fixt above

 

Ya know, it sort of bugs me that I kind of left frequency response dangling earlier. Not to try & cover the topic in great detail, but everything's sort of based around frequency response as the end result...that and quality of that response. Frequency response by definition is frequency relative to amplitude.

That said, frequency response graphs are a big part of choosing a driver as you'll want a woofer + a tweeter (assuming a 2-way system) to cover the entire audible spectrum (save the sub frequencies - that's usually too much for a 2-way system to offer).

I'll use the graphs for my setup since I have these on hand.

This is the woofer's on-axis response. I chose this woofer partially because of the reasonably linear response all the way out past 4 kHz.



I'm installing this tweeter to match partially based on the graph and partially based on parameters. The 2 small lines are 15 and 30 degrees off axis with the 30 degree line being further off. You can see that in general as the frequency increases, off-axis response becomes poorer. This is why people like to build pods on their dash with the drivers hitting them in the face - to attempt to eliminate this effect.



Note that there's comfortable overlap in the graphs, but the tweeter graph is somewhat misleading and makes you think you can comfortably play the tweeter down to 1.5 kHz. Realistically that won't work without a seriously steep crossover slope which isn't available on most equipment. For this I turn to the Fs parameter (free air resonance), which is 1170 Hz, and double it to find that it's probably better suited to something around 2340 Hz or above. I could maybe go lower, but with a steeper slope.

Had I chosen the larger woofer in this family, which only plays comfortably to a bit over 2 kHz, it might leave a gap in frequency response. I plan to cross these in the neighborhood of 3 kHz, and the graph tells me that I can do that comfortably with the smaller woofer, but would have a trough in my response between 2 and 3 kHz had I chosen a driver that I needed to cross lower. I mentioned that you had more latitude when using active crossovers before. This is one area where those shine as you can typically alter the crossover slope as well as the frequency. Passives typically have a fixed slope and frequency although some offer varying degrees of attenuation.

Not all vendors supply this information. In many cases, it just doesn't exist unless it's been independently tested. That information may be available through one of these. Parts Express and Madisound are quite good about supplying this information, but most other retailers give you a few items at best.

 

wow..this seems like great info. I am wading through it.

THanks!!
DAVE

 

and that's why i don't buy what most automotive speakers manufacturers are selling. very little data besides "we are expensive and good" come with higher end automotive speakers. i have found very few that actually independently test higher end car audio. where in the home and diy audio realms, we have tons of data sets to compare and use to make informed decisions.

i also don't like how most car audio display systems are built. "sound rooms" where almost everything is mostly on-axis, equidistant, close to ear height and probably in a well dampened enclosure. now most stock locations will have these drivers 20-80° off-axis, massively asymmetrical, chest height in best cases and a nice hollow reverb chamber of a door to catch the rear wave.

sorry, just my $0.02

 

Yeah, I never understood why folks who manufacture/market for the auto segment think they're excluded from providing such information. Way too much marketing BS and way too little actual information here. They also like to tell you that unless it's specifically made for the car, then you'd be a fool to install it in a car. I reference the NVX/SB example above...same speaker - just different marketing (note that the NVX version comes with hardly any data where the SB from Madisound comes with everything you need - for less coin). For what it's worth, my factory 5x7s, all 4 of them, show zero signs of water damage on the untreated paper cones after 13+ years and this truck has seen some elements. And you can always choose a driver with a treated, poly, etc cone if you're worried about untreated paper getting wet (or in my case wool)...if you can't be bothered to build a simple plastic rain shield above it.

No shortage of complaints about shop sound rooms. I've heard a recent suggestion that many of them will tune speakers at the switch to give the advantage to kits with higher profit margins. I guess that makes sense, but it's all sorts of dirty. It's really irrelevant to me as I haven't seen anything in a shop I wanted to take home in a long time. All the shops around me, and there are plenty, are more focused on bass than anything...just quantities of bass. Double DIN touch screens and BASS...that's what I'm being told I need. Pioneer, Focal, Kicker, Alpine, or JL. There's just nothing else. Oh, and lots of BASS!

 

Ive been reading through the Basic Car Audio website and it has lots of good info. I have done a DIY upgrade to my F150 I had maybe 8 years ago. Basically upgraded the speakers, installed an amp and sub behind the rear seats and ran the wires, so I have some limited experience with it. With what I spent though, I was happy with it , but not blown away. I would like clear sounds coming out of my speakers over loud bass making it all mushy. There is a time and place for that.

I really like the idea of the A. Less expensive route with the same speakers, B. DIY part so that I know and understand what it all does, and C. I can get better sound out of them.

I think I am going to work from the speakers forward, with an eye on the end game. Ultimately. I do like my OEM stereo due to the stealth factor and functionality. I understand once I get to that point where everything is done up to the head unit, that will be my limiting factor. Some people might say I am putting lipstick on a pig, but pigs need to look pretty too.

So, I think for the fronts a 6.5 mid bass with a tweeter as was mentioned above is a good starting point. I guess from there forward I will figure out how to match them up nicely.

 

I know @SlowComa666 and @rob feature have some build logs on here with a lot of good information that are worth reading through. I've also gone the route with raw drivers. I have a thread with the specifics but I essentially did factory headunit to miniDSP c-DSP to a 4 channel amp to a pair of 6.5 mid bass and 1" tweeters in the factory locations. Tuning using the DSP has been the hardest part for me as I have done a few other audio installs in the past, so I knew what to expect there. But, there is a lot of good information to read and learn and with a little knowledge and some time it has made the biggest difference in sound for me. DIYMA forum is also another good place to learn if your interested in car audio.

 

Good stuff deeve, sounds like you're figuring some stuff out. That sounds like a fine idea to me. I'll echo dmb's assessment of DIYMA. It's a gold mine. There are quite a few industry pros who haunt it regularly and share their wisdom and some of their secrets. That's a good place to poke around for good speaker pairings too. You can cheat a little here . No need to try & match something on your own - especially the first time around. Just remember you'll need crossovers as it sounds like you intend to remain passive for some time. You can build them yourself or buy pre-built units. Really though, for the price, you might as well consider buying a set as building can be more expensive & you have to wrangle up all the parts...after you figure out what you're doing.

 

I'm new here, but this guy seems to really know what he is talking about. I have used sound deadening and it never really made much difference to me, except that the door sounds less tinny when you shut it. Based on his posts, and the thread of his system build, I would pretty much trust what Gary says 99.5%. Oddly, the best sounding system I have built was for my first Tacoma, a regular cab 1999 SST model. I made a flat little sub box, put in two 8" pioneer subs with a 100W Orion amp, an Alpine head unit, and MB Quart door speakers running off an old Fosgate Punch 75 amp I had laying around. Probably had about $400-500 in the whole system. Good luck to the OP, I would just say follow Gary's advise, and get the best amp you can afford first, then upgrade the speakers over time.