Fellow Forced Induction guys...

This post is targeted specifically towards anyone who is running the URD FTC piggyback on a 5VZ-FE (though not necessarily excluding standalone users) with moderate boost, be it supercharger or turbocharger(s).
TL;DR: I'm losing timing; how should I get it back? [And see questions at the end.]
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So, my turbo project has been finished for about 6-8 months now and I've finally gotten around to getting serious about tuning it. (Previously I had relied on the closed loop process and gentle driving). Obviously the FTC can do fuel, and timing retard, but not advancement (ridiculous, but whatever), so I've been mainly focused on fuel until now. Now that I've gotten the majority of the cells dialed in using O2 removal street method (ask for details if this isn't common - I've been thinking of doing a writeup), I'm looking to start squeezing more power of the system.

The obvious next step is timing - specifically reducing automatic retard.

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But first, some recent background:
I talked a bit with the Split Second guys, who revealed that turning cells to values under 10 reduce the engine's perception of load, and can therefore impact timing by advancing it since it thinks it can. I want to mention that none of URD's documents or forum posts I've ever come across state this. Basically, this is why you use the timing table in the FTC - to correct for larger injectors whose consequence could be values substantially under 10.

The standard map from URD includes timing table values over 1 in the low boost, mid to high RPM range - which is counter to what the Split Second rep told me it should be, but corresponds with the URD base fuel map (they have 9s, I believe). Basically the Split Second logic is that low RPM would require heavy reduction with larger injectors, but the way our trucks behave is apparently voodoo nonsense... I digress.

The point of all this is that I have found the timing table to be effectively useless and a waste of money since the ECU does what it wants anyway (drive cautiously in those regions after a battery reset, but 3deg is nothing), I have never heard audible pinging until now (will discuss), and we can't use it to advance to gain moar powa baby.

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So. Having set my spring pressure to 7psi (6.8 effective) originally, I have started activating my boost controller to gain a little more pressure at a time. Tonight upon reaching 7-8, I started to notice a new high pitched noise at high RPM (4.5k+). My first thought was that it was the controller oscillating (10% duty - who knows the freq.), but then it occurred to me it could be the long lost ping knowing that ping occurs between 4 and 7kHz IIRC - which is right where it was.

THEN, I got on the freeway to really push it to worst case.
And what did I see on my scan tool? -4deg advance.

Now, I've always thought I had a low advance in general - most people I see post about it (rare) are like 10-15deg at WOT. Mine was always 10 maximum, and tonight (about 78F out; my intake was never over 90F), I was seeing 8deg to well... -4... but mostly 8 to 5deg advanced - much lower than I'd like, I think.

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And that all brings me to my questions:

1. What is your worst case timing advance? And under what boost/RPM/load?

2. Is timing advance as displayed on scan tools for this ECU referenced to TDC (or is there some base map I don't know about like the stock fuel one)?
2b. If it is referenced to a base map, how on earth do I obtain the absolute timing advance?

3. Do you notice a decrease in power when you change from closed loop boost to open loop WOT (and boost)?
The timing advance decreases for me, and sometimes I feel like there's more power there when I leave the plate just before wide open.

4. How much timing can I expect to gain back with 91? With E30?

5. How much timing can I expect to gain back with the GM Knock sensor mod?


Thanks in advance (hah) for your time (hah)!
No, really, thanks. I realize these are very niche questions.

 

Oh man, you touched on some good questions here. I have decent answers for you too when I can take a minute on my laptop and write you a real response.

 

Well, this is rare, like actually. This forum has a lot of boost noobies because, well anyone can bolt the TRD supercharger on and then be instantly confused as to why the truck still feels like a potato when they slam their foot to the floor. A lot of them never stretch the troubleshooting portion of having a boosted engine either so they either give up and accept that it will ping and retard as a consequence or they go for the next easiest way out and put on a 7th injector which as you've now noticed with your FTC one has an archaic interface of questionable usefulness.

I'm afraid as part of my skepticism of the FTC-1 ability to actually control any aspect of fuel or timing effectively, I haven't researched much of the workarounds for it either so I won't be much help there. But maybe I can fill in a few of the other pieces of the puzzle for you and help you find a place to go from here.

The 5VZ-FE first off, might have the world's most awful stock timing map in the computer. It is ping happy even naturally aspirated. So much so that dealers recommended people just fill with 89 octane if they experienced ping where they live, those in less dense climates didn't have the issue and some others got away with it or never noticed because the knock sensing system is actually pretty good at picking it up and retarding ignition in response. Something it sounds like you've been experiencing, as boost is basically an amplifier for ping as far as the knock sensing circuit is concerned.

So why the ping, why the retarding? Well, unfortunately Toyota ECUs of this generation are locked, not tuning or much monitoring we can do to retrieve what the real maps are. But from visual monitoring like we do with scan tools and a dyno graph of a stock 5VZ you'll notice they make gobs of torque down low and it peaks early. There is a preset advance amount per cell as with any ECU and it is pretty aggressive to build that torque early on. From there if no knock is detected the ECU will count up a half a degree of advance per second. The real issue comes next, this is also probably why Toyotas are considered so damn reliable, if it encounters knock it doesn't back it down to the last safe advance number it tried, no no no, it counts it back below the safe number in the ignition base map cell. Hence why you see it hang out in a negative for a bit before it attempts to count back up. They often don't even try to count the ignition back up while you're still in boost either because it'll ping pretty early anyway because of a lack of fuel enrichment under boost.

Short and sweet of it is, the stock ECU has no concept of boost or what to do with it. Without the fuel enrichment and with the aggressive count up and weak countdown of the ignition we end up driving potatoes with air compressors strapped to them.

I have a few questions for you, you stated you're doing your tuning of the maps in the FTC with the upstream O2 unplugged yeah? You're not already running 91 (BTW if you're not that a big issue already, if you're boosted on an effectively un-tuned engine the very least you can do is get some octane into it to help with ping)?

We can touch on some of your other questions after you answer those cause they're kinda important. I have some Toyota documents that detail how the computer uses various inputs and that might help you understand why altering the knock sensor is a bad idea and why trying to avoid a better piggyback or a standalone is only going to have you spending more money for mediocre results.

 

speedy wanna come to hawaii and be my dad.

 

Sounds expensive

 

On many fronts; it will be expensive.

 

My answers in red.

And that all brings me to my questions:

1. What is your worst case timing advance? And under what boost/RPM/load?

Never seen below 10.

2. Is timing advance as displayed on scan tools for this ECU referenced to TDC (or is there some base map I don't know about like the stock fuel one)?

I've also wondered if the 10-11* timing I see on Torque is the total timing or timing advance. I guess it really doesn't matter afterall. I always run 93 and 50/50 meth and still my timing is that low.

3. Do you notice a decrease in power when you change from closed loop boost to open loop WOT (and boost)?

Nope, going to 14psi will do that though. It does hop down drastically when hitting open loop, but the boost more than makes up for it.

4. How much timing can I expect to gain back with 91? With E30?

No idea, can test.

5. How much timing can I expect to gain back with the GM Knock sensor mod?

I have the GM knock sensors, because my stock ones went out very quickly after going turbo and that didn't change the overall timing number I saw.

 

First off, thank you both so far, very helpful.

Victor:
Interesting about the knock sensor. I had always assumed that it was less sensitive, and would therefore retard timing less.

Speedy:

- I did not realize the stock ECU was that aggressive. I knew it dialed it back, but not a bounce like you describe.
- Yes, tuning with both O2 unplugged, watching for when it uses alternative methods for AFR calculating/temp closed loop (I assume this is some voodoo MAF function) - I stop logging at that point and reset the battery before the next run.
- Again, I have not heard audible ping for sure. It could be the turbo, wastegate, boost controller, or just air escaping the intake plenum through a gasket. Obviously though, from what you said, the ECU thinks there is. And therefore, I should add octane to see if I see better results.
- No 91, it's been 87 the whole time.
- Finally, I really don't want to do any more to this truck besides a new paint job and finish the interior, so a standalone or alternative piggyback is out of the question (especially since I paid $500 for this one). Plus I've got a Golf R that needs mods and I'm rebuilding a Saab.

 

Also, I've had a cam sensor code ever since the FTC install (over a year ago) that only triggers above 4k RPM or so. Not sure what to make of that, or if it should be replaced. I always figured it was the ECU's reaction to the FTC inline.

 

Probably post in the boost bs thread

My only advise I have with not much knowledge is

Do you have an intercooler or meth injection?

 

Idk how to move it..

I've got a good size intercooler. You can literally feel the temperature differential as you run your hand under it - pretty cool ... damn, these puns

edit: It's 31x12x3

 

Gotcha, as speedy said the older 5vz ecus are locked up tight. No tuning what so ever, I believe its @Blackdawg that had to get a newer ECU to tune his truck.

 

Nope, none of them are tunable with anything commercially available right now. He did that because the 95-96 ECU reacts even worse than the 97-04 ecus do to boost. They all barely tolerate boost anyway in the grand scheme of things

 

Yeah tuning sucks.

By far the best way to get the most out of a blower/turbo or FAI from our motor is using the FIC6 by AEM. it will let you do the most tuning with the least amount of hassle. There's a great thread on here with tons of info on wiring one up and using it. Some 7mge supra injectors would be fine or 7mgte if your doing a turbo will 10-14psi.

Don't bother with anything else. Serious. The urd/split second stuff is so damn old to even use it you need windows xp.

Either way..it's gonna be a lot of work. But can work well if enough time and some money is used.


Meth injection will also work.






Side note about 95-97. While it's true they have the worst ecu in terms of doing boost. Ironically you can do a diy plug n play megasquirt 3 fully stand alone ecu for the same price as the aem fic6. While it's not the best option(like a haltech or similar) it is pretty cool and does work well. Takes a tone of effort though.

 

OP
There are so many great advantages to a methanol setup with 100 plus octane.

The lower the intake temperature and higher octane and more humidity (means more power (methanol kit)

Mine works like a dream at 6000 feet,

At ten pounds of boost and yes air is thinner so probably will be different at sea level

 

Just wanted to let everyone involved know that 91 worked great a month ago when it was cooler! (haven't driven much since then) No noticeable retarding and the turbo screams!

Now I'm wondering if it's worth it to pull the heads for a clean/port/polish.

Also, if anyone is interested, I will be scrapping my current "big" turbo setup in favor of two small twins. It makes way more sense for a V-style engine with 1.7L per side that only revs to 6500rpm to use small turbos than the big 'ol GT35s or equivalent diesel Borg Warners you always see used or recommended on the 5VZ. My calculations are promising...just hope the tranny will hold the torque down low.

 

You should only be running 91 octane btw...or higher.

Twins. That sounds very very expensive. But cool. I'd just run a smaller single and call it good.

 

Ya...trying 91 was the recommendation and I figured it would be necessary eventually. I was kinda just holding out to see how much I could kick it before it creaked.

And ya, the stock Focus ST turbos will work a treat, and they're dirt cheap - just need to get clever with placement. The plumbing shouldn't be any more complicated than I dealt with for my current build

 

Those are twin scroll too so super fast.

Take photos!