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Front Diff Vibes ECGS bushing fix.

Discussion in '3rd Gen. Tacomas (2016+)' started by BCJake, Dec 13, 2016.

  1. Apr 22, 2020 at 3:57 PM
    #981
    Mike2121

    Mike2121 Club-Coma

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    Anyone willing to loan the tool? Thanks in advance.
     
  2. Feb 22, 2021 at 11:47 PM
    #982
    hx989

    hx989 Superunknown Member

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    The TRD Pro uses different internals??? Proof? More info??

    the needle bearing isn’t the problem, this is exactly where you’d normally want to use one, the crappy cast carrier is the real problem. ECGS made a video about this for y’all to see. The splined end of the CV goes into the driver side spider gear which doesn’t sit tight in a machined surface but in a sloppy cast. That is the real problem and gets amplified when lifted. The ECGS bushing therefore is a bandaid albeit a very good one. I wonder if Toyota has a better carrier in higher end SUV like their similar Lexus models?? And did they sneak that into the TRD Pro?
     
  3. Feb 23, 2021 at 12:29 AM
    #983
    Jeff Lange

    Jeff Lange Well-Known Member

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    41301-35230 - Case, Front Differential (2016-2017 All, 2018-Jan. 2019 Excl. TRD Pro)
    41301-71120 - Case, Front Differential (Jan. 2019-2021 Excl. TRD Pro)
    41301-35240 - Case, Front Differential (2018-2021 TRD Pro)

    41039-35010 - Gear Set, Spider (2016-2017 All, 2018-2021 Excl. TRD Pro)
    41039-35020 - Gear Set, Spider (2018-2021 TRD Pro)

    I have no idea what the differences are, and the 2018-2021 TRD Pro parts are not used in any other Toyota vehicle.

    Jeff
     
  4. Feb 23, 2021 at 12:35 AM
    #984
    Jeff Lange

    Jeff Lange Well-Known Member

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    It's really a matter of perspective. From a "wanting to lift the truck" perspective it's not great, but the spider gear and the spline is not intended to support radial loading from the CV spline, that's what the bearing is for, but again, it's not designed for misalignment forces.

    Jeff
     
  5. Feb 23, 2021 at 12:42 AM
    #985
    hx989

    hx989 Superunknown Member

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    It’s cost savings plain and simple. Mass producing a cast part with loose tolerances is cheaper than a machined precision fit that would prohibit misalignment forces in the needle bearing
     
  6. Feb 23, 2021 at 8:49 AM
    #986
    Jeff Lange

    Jeff Lange Well-Known Member

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    Yup, that's exactly what I'm saying, you don't precision machine a part that doesn't need to be machined, it's a waste of money. The spider gear is designed to be supported by the CV shaft, it is not there to support the CV shaft. The spider gear is not supposed to touch the case as it was designed. They designed the differential for the forces they expected it to see and excluded cases they didn't. That said, if they did design it for those forces, it would have been with a second internal bearing and/or larger outer bearing. The needle bearing is there because Toyota doesn't want consistent metal on metal contact between the always spinning LH CV and the not always spinning front differential in ADD front diffs.

    Splined connections are not typically designed for radial loading, and so applying that loading and then trying to support it with steel on steel surface contact between the spider gear and the case without pressurized lubrication would seem to be ill-advised, at least to me.

    I would suggest deleting ADD and going with a traditional diff, or perhaps machine the diff/spider gear to accept a bearing (ball or plain if there are geometry concerns) if you are going to apply those increased loads to the spider gear. I'm not sure if that is what ECGS was planning to do when they took it apart.

    Jeff
     
  7. Feb 23, 2021 at 1:22 PM
    #987
    hx989

    hx989 Superunknown Member

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    None of your suggestions are practical for anyone just wanting to eliminate vibes after a lift. What “traditional” diff would even fit? Besides, the ECGS bushings doesn’t net you steel on steel, it’s a sintered bronze bushing.

    FWIF, the Dana 30 carrier is machined for a much more precise fit of the spider gear.
     
  8. Feb 23, 2021 at 3:54 PM
    #988
    Jeff Lange

    Jeff Lange Well-Known Member

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    What's practical depends on the person I suppose, though I agree for most typical owners my suggestions aren't the most straightforward, though I would say the most practical of them is probably using a non-ADD differential, you could find one used pretty easily I would think.

    For finding one, in North America, a traditional diff could be sourced from a 2003-2009 4Runner V8 (3.73:1), 2003-2009 GX470 (3.73:1), 2007-2014 FJ Cruiser 6MT (3.91:1), 2010-2021 4Runner Limited/Nightshade (3.73:1), or 2010-2021 GX460 (3.91:1). These diffs are all bolt-in for a 2005-2021 Tacoma and do not use the needle bearing setup.

    You're right, the ECGS bushing is not steel on steel and serves the same purpose the stock needle bearing did, but that wasn't what I was getting at to be honest.

    In a traditional differential setup, like you would find in a Dana 30, or a non-ADD Toyota, when traveling in a straight line with the hubs engaged, the diff and axles are spinning at the same speed, so there is no relative motion between them. When you start to take a corner, the inside wheel moves a bit slower and the outside wheel moves a bit faster, with the diff moving at their average speed. The relative speed between the diff and each axle is half the difference between the inner and outer wheel, which is pretty slow and easy to lubricate.

    In contrast, with ADD the RH axle is disconnected, and so when driving in a straight line, the LH axle is spinning at full speed while the differential is stopped, this results in the spider gears spinning inside the differential at full vehicle speed, and so Toyota machined the differential case slightly larger and put in a needle bearing to allow that full speed relative motion between the moving CV shaft and the stopped differential.

    If Toyota had machined the case and had a precise fit on the spider gear into it, that spider gear would then also be spinning against a stopped case at full vehicle speed. This is also why there is a needle bearing on the RH side of the diff, as that (disconnected) stub shaft is also spinning at full vehicle speed. The other spider gears ride on a pinion shaft with two slots to allow oil to get in. There is very little loading on these gears during disconnected operation. This is what I was getting at.

    If it were me trying to solve the problem, my first thought would be to try to get a second bearing installed outboard of the differential in the area where the oil seal is installed. It's a tight area to try and make something like that happen in, but it would provide the support needed instead of overloading the needle bearing, additionally it could be done in vehicle without too much trouble.

    Jeff
     
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  9. Feb 23, 2021 at 6:49 PM
    #989
    hx989

    hx989 Superunknown Member

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    Oh, that’s what you mean by traditional diff. Gotcha, yeah those will fit but you will then end up with a diff, front drive shaft and xfer case that always spins. Even in 2Hi. Driven by the tires, with worse mpg as a result. How much worse I can’t say. Never tried on my trucks. It probably changes the road feel too, at least slightly but maybe not everyone will notice. I don’t mean to lecture you, sounds like you’re well aware but you didn’t state this in your post above. So what did you do on your truck? Factory CV angle? Or did you use one of those AWD non ADD diffs? Do the latter use a 2 or 4 pinion design?
     
  10. Feb 23, 2021 at 7:16 PM
    #990
    Jeff Lange

    Jeff Lange Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I am aware of the changes it would make, figured it was a given. Definitely would have the diff, shaft, and t-case spinning all the time, which would hurt your fuel mileage a tad. With an open differential in there I don't think you'd notice a difference in the way the truck drives, each of the front wheels is free to spin completely independently from the other. There is a small difference of course, with the added drag losses of the spinning drivetrain components, but likely not noticeable from a road feel perspective.

    As for me, I've never had a lift large enough to cause issues with the bearings. My interest is almost purely from a design/engineering interest standpoint, though I have also in the past had to help other people fix their trucks or just help when they're deciding how to set up a lift, etc.

    From time to time I do take the time to develop an actual product and/or solution to these issues as well, and I'm hoping once I am done my last semester of classes in April, I'll be able to use some of my time to doing that a bit more.

    Jeff
     
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  11. Feb 23, 2021 at 8:13 PM
    #991
    hx989

    hx989 Superunknown Member

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    Same here, I have less than 1” suspension lift. Not a fan of lifted trucks, and I’ve had no need for ditching the needle bearing. So do you know if those ‘conventional’ diffs are 2 or 4 pinion?

    and if one were to go ADD delete, either with the Taco clamshell or a donor from an AWD Yota, what is your take on throwing a Torsen into the mix up front?
     
  12. Feb 23, 2021 at 10:37 PM
    #992
    Jeff Lange

    Jeff Lange Well-Known Member

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    Sorry I missed that part. The pinion setup and the spider gears are the same for with or without ADD, so they are still 2-pinion.

    Jeff
     
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  13. Feb 24, 2021 at 12:27 AM
    #993
    hx989

    hx989 Superunknown Member

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    So, same as the open rear diff. I was asking because both the available ARB air locker and the Harrop e-locker utilize a 4 pinion design (in the rear as well) but curiously the Harrop unit uses OEM style needle bearings (on both sides) but the ARB does not.
     
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