Gun Show tomorrow... Advice?

wileyC · Jan 12, 2012

JDCPA said: ↑

Based on the NJ report your comments may have some validity for hollow point and frangible rounds. They are, of course, designed to started deformation upon impact.

I would suggest you go back and read the report again regarding full metal jacketed .223 rounds. They went through all four boards with little resistance and were found in the range wall 100 yards down range.

Your comments address bullet design, not ballistics.
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...in the second case the 55gr FMJ was keyholing, ..

plus i think it would've been different if they had the "walls" spaced farther apart, to be more representative of actual homes/rooms..

i also saw this on the guns-n-gear tv show, ...i'll see if i can find it on youtube..

Zombie Runner · Jan 13, 2012

wileyC said: ↑

ballistics is not a "linear" science, ..i.e. projectiles of various weights, speeds, materials, angles of incidence can cause surprising results... as a fact the .223/5.56 is not good at penetrating layers of drywall, ..the small projectile traveling at high speed destabilises very rapidly upon passing through it causing it to yaw and fragment... the same bullet traveling at a much lower velocity would probably be much more effective at punching through drywall..

..have you seen the mythbusters episode, where they shoot various firearms into water/pool? the "high powered" rifle projectiles (.223, and .50 BMG) which are good at some things, like against armor, are horrible at penetrating through water, ...the impact basically caused them to fragment at shallow depths..

here's a real-world test w/ some .223 cartridges, and some other cartridge thrown in for fun:
http://230grain.com/showthread.php?65428-Ammunition-Drywall-Penetration-Analysis-Test-%28Adpat%29

..and if you still aren't convinced, ..look at this by the NJ division of criminal justice... there's a reason tactical squads like .223 for CQB, ...good effectiveness on humans and body armor, ..but also a lesser danger when penetrating into adjacent rooms..the rounds tend to tumble/keyhole and break up in the distances between the walls (i.e. the living spaces between wall 1, wall 2, wall 3, ...)
http://www.state.nj.us/lps/dcj/njpdresources/pdfs/wallboard_test.pdf
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http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot2.htm

http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

both of these link provide info on the .223 penetrating many layers of drywal

wileyC · Jan 13, 2012

Zombie Runner said: ↑

http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot2.htm

http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

both of these link provide info on the .223 penetrating many layers of drywal
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yes, i'm familiar w/ box-o-truth, ...good site, ..good man (old painless)

...however, my point is that you can't always extrapolate the terminal effectiveness of projectiles based on perceived performance advantages, such as a high velocity rifle round vs a slower pistol round penetrating drywall, windshields, ...etc. the results are oftentimes counter-intuitive...

... take a look at the ammo oracle (AR15.com), ..a very good accounting of the .223/5.56 performance... here's a graphic showing wound profiles into gelatin "after" penetrating wallboard.. you'll see the slower pistol rounds are more effective, in terms of post-barrier (i.e. the wallboard) penetration

source (go to section #2):
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#.223

2) OVERPENETRATION INSIDE THE HOME
A common concern for people when trying to decide which caliber to choose for self defense is overpenetration inside the home. Many believe that pistols calibers would automatically penetrate less than rifle bullets, or that light fragmenting bullets will allow you to not be concerned with overpenetration. In regards to the latter - this is a false assumption. Take, for example, the Glaser Safety Slug. It is a pre-fragmented bullet with very shallow and completely penetration in bare gelatin. When fired through drywall, the bullet fails to expand and behaves as a FMJ solid. Another example would be using a lightweight varmint bullet in an AR, thinking that the shallow penetration in tissue would be sufficient to not worry about persons in adjacent rooms in case of a miss. The question I would ask is this: If you knew that there is a person in a room behind the bad guy and you're only separated by drywall, would you really risk taking a shot and rely solely on the bullet to not hurt or kill someone in case of a miss?
As far as the idea that pistol bullets will inherently penetrate less than rifle cartridges, take a look at this graph comparing common weapons one might employ in the role of self-defense:
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mws4ua · Jan 14, 2012

This thread seems to have drifted a bit...

Rmodel65 · Jan 14, 2012

mws4ua[OP] said: ↑

Yeah, I put several 38 special rounds through it, in fact. The difference in kick is really amazing.

I didn't want to worry about which rounds were immediately available to be loaded and if she'd be able to handle the kick of whatever came out when she pulled the trigger. With a .40 gun that she's experienced, she knows what to expect, and doesn't have to think about what rounds to load. Slam in the clip and go.
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huh?

hardtaco · Jan 15, 2012

JDCPA said: ↑

That comment seems seriously inaccurate. We recently had 2 killed and 12 wounded because of a drive-by shooting at a local night club. Shooter left 63 .223 casings that were able to be found. The bullets went right through the cinder block walls to kill one and injure several others. Guess the club should have put up drywall instead of cinder block walls.
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Over in Palmetto, correct? I live in Bradenton and remember this massacre.....

JDCPA · Jan 15, 2012

hardtaco said: ↑

Over in Palmetto, correct? I live in Bradenton and remember this massacre.....
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Yes, it was a gang-related shooting. PPD is still working the case in association with the MCSO and FDLE since much of the gang activity is outside the city limits..

mws4ua · Jan 15, 2012

Rmodel65 said: ↑

huh?
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Excuse me.

Redgrom · Jan 15, 2012

tigerfan00 said: ↑

Matt, many times gun shows have higher prices on actual firearms than if you bought them in a store

Decide now how much you are willing to spend and then go have a look around

You said you've really liked the G23, so I don't know why you'd look any further than another Glock if you are looking for a semi-auto specifically

One good thing about Glocks is that you can find them used all the time in many places for much cheaper than the new price ~$550

The last one I bought was a 3rd gen 23 for $400 and it still had the copper shipping lube on it

While I agree with many of the other suggestions as being fine firearms, you KNOW you like the Glock plus with a 22 and a 23, you can switch out holsters, etc...and 22 mags will work in a 23

What I would personally do, is take this opportunity to put your feelers out as to what exists

Go handle as many pistols as you can that interest you while you're there, buy some ammo (because that usually can be found for a deal at shows) and get a good idea of what you want to purchase in the future

Then shop around

Do not pay retail for a firearm

For example, the last 2 firearms I bought, I paid right at 50% what they would cost retail new, because I waited, and shopped, and waited, and shopped etc

I paid $500 for a $1000 Kimber 1911
$525 for a $900 S&W 629 with a $500 scope on it

Also, keep an eye here:
http://www.armslist.com/classifieds/alabama/all

Oh and while you are at the show, if you find something that you may think is a smoking deal, get on gunbroker.com on your phone and check current going prices for similar firearms to get an idea of how smoking it is
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Can anyone recomend a Place to pick up a 1911 for a decent price? Had a chance to shoot a friends and it felt great in my hands.

barlowrs · Jan 15, 2012

Redgrom said: ↑

Can anyone recomend a Place to pick up a 1911 for a decent price? Had a chance to shoot a friends and it felt great in my hands.
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1911 are the most common handgun out there, EVERYONE makes one...it alldepends on how much you want to spend vs what you will get. You can go cheaplike a Puma, all the way to full custom race guns like infinity. Fact is in the1911 world you get what you pay for, I would not get anything lower than a nicekimber or colt at about at grand, even then, it may require some upgrades tomake it truly decent.

If you already shot your friends, and were happywith it, find out what it is and go for that.

Redgrom · Jan 15, 2012

Pretty sure it was the Kimber. I have found them for just over a grand but I dont really know where to find the best deals on firearms.
Thanks

JimBeam · Jan 15, 2012

I have a long standing relationship with my local gun store, and I am a member of a couple local forums...thats how I find my deals

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mws4ua [OP] I'll try being nicer if you try being smarter.

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#48 mws4ua [OP] I'll try being nicer if you try being smarter.

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