Help judging a Tacoma frame to buy it

sorry, soundman, i rushed to post this below and did not notice that you had already replied to me at length! i will now go and read it and it may make what i say below irrelevant. thanks again!

(start of my post having not read soundman):

i need to make some decisions in the next two days. that's why i am posting so hard.

i need to know if you all think i should drop the second tacoma that i described above, with its rust, or is it possibly workable?

soundman, above, raised the possibility of pursuing a ford ranger, depsite my love for tacomas, because of my lack of money. (i think i am not going to get approved for much of a loan.)

and, finally, what about "frame fabrication"? my 96 is sitting in my driveway with its frame rotted out. but it has a good engine, good trans, brakes, tires, steering, interior, cab and bed. my mechanics called it "more solid than a lot of cars around here" before the trans rust rotting it had been looked at. i have a couple thousand bucks. could i get the frame "fixed" so that it would last me for a few years while i save money for a better tacoma would that work or is frame fabrication impractical or a waste of time and money. just trying to get a workable truck for a few years.

 

soundman, both of the tacomas i have been considering are sticks.

me and wifey already are working on scenarios that involve less money out now, getting a workable vehicle, and saving for a better tacoma, just as you did. thanks for the backing on this.

i like this: "so it's worth considering trying to use a $2k ranger for a few years, stack some savings away, and when you're ready, pull the trigger on what you really want instead."

thank you so much, soundman! and tacomaworld itself!

 

another issue i just realized. we want to be able to take one trip pulling a trailer with a 16-foot walleye boat, from detroit to western new york every year. someone is saying they would not trust a ford of that age (2003) to do that, and we can't take that risk. how are the fords that old for something like that?

 

i really don't think they fare any better/worse than any toyota. main difference is that toyota's of that vintage are well known for the frame to rot out, while the mechanicals can go on for literally forever. ford/chevy/dodge all tend to equally 'return to earth' for both their body/frames, and mechanicals.


my grandma had a 2006 chevy impala, bought new-- the typical grandma car... before she passed away, the extended family got into a large debate of what to do with the car. my grandma and the uncle that was entrusted with vehicle maintenance (my grandfathers will specified different duties to different children for my grandmothers care), were entirely convinced that being a 2006, the vehicle was far too old and unreliable to make the trip anywhere, and they wanted to scrap it. my dad was quick to point out that if it can't make a trip across the country, it shouldn't be trusted to make the trip around town.

i tend to agree more with my dad than my other relatives. if a vehicle can be trusted to get to work, it should make the cross country trip fine as well. and if it's not good enough for one, it's not good enough for the other either. but i fully believe that it comes down to the maintenance that's performed. i was at odd's with my uncle more than once for wanting to replace components preventatively, where he really believed only in replacing things after they broke. there's a reason it's called 'preventative maintenance'...

that said, trailer duties does change the requirements some-- you'll need to narrow down the search for at least a v6, they had a 3.0, and a 4.0, as well as a smaller 2.3L 4-cylinder, i'd definitely suggest the 4.0 v6, which was mostly paired to automatics, the manual trans were somewhat rare, and tend to command more because of it.

many 4.0's also came with a towing package which included a trailer hitch, 4-pin trailer plug, and transmission cooler loop.

other than that, it all comes down to the stuff i've already discussed-- as long as the frame is in decent condition(that tan ranger with the overdrive issue appears to be a decent condition frame from the pictures included), and as long as the brake system, tires, and fluids are all verified and updated as needed, i would have no issue driving any vehicle of any vintage that distance.

i mean, if a 1926 model T can make it, i imagine a 2000+ ranger can do ok as well.

https://www.reddit.com/r/carporn/comments/n0i34l/these_guys_call_themselves_the_tbums_taken_while/





as far as the 'frame fabrication' question--generally, repairing frames aren't worth it. it tends to become a case of whack-a-mole, where you or the mechanic, starts cutting at the worst hole until they reach fresh/thick metal. the toyota's are well known for rotting out, meaning that by the time it's that bad, there's usually very little fresh metal to cut back to, so cutting at the rear could easily end up finishing up by the front radiator.

in cases like this, where the vehicle is extremely worthwhile, it's typically better to locate a solid frame, and then swap the running gear over instead of trying to patch the frame. but given the model year, you'll likely end up paying around $2k only for the frame, and then sourcing a shop willing to move everything over could very well be at least $2k as well, and that's assuming absolutely no bolts break, and no maintenance items will need to be addressed once they start getting into it. so you'd be paying $4k minimum, to be down a vehicle for a minimum of a month under absolute ideal circumstances, that they don't need to order parts. all to end up back with where you're at currently.

realistically, it'd be fair to expect to try to address a few other larger maintenance issues while the truck is apart, which will further drive up the cost. and there will also very likely will be parts that break upon disassembly, some of which likely no longer are in production, and will take extra time to source.

to pay a shop to work on it full time, it wouldn't be unrealistic to expect a final cost nearing $10k, and around 6 months. and that would be only after they sourced all the parts, which could easily take another 2 months of work leading up to it. so you could easily be out the vehicle for a full year by that point.

that's why such ordeals are typically reserved for special vehicles, or called 'passion projects'. because it's a bottomless hole of money.

 

whew! no fabrication for me! tomorrow i will see if chase or a dealership has any money for me.

i may take the second tacoma, the one i looked, to my shop. (this guys said fine.) i can trust them to tell me how bad it is. if the other one, which i will see for the first time tomoorow, had any considerable amount of rust, then i will say no to it. we will see. i don't have the confidence you have in the fords, having worked at ford assembly plant #2 and in the foundry in the early 70s. you could be right but i can't convince my wife of that and she would be on pins and needles the whole way of any big trip. as for a vehicle that you can't trust for a long trip, the only advantage there is with it is if it breaks down it is not far away. that can make a lot of difference..

thanks for your help.

 

what about safe-t-caps? would that be an option on my 1996? or on the 2009 (the $9000 truck whose frame and the rest that i inspected. would knowing i could get saf-t-caps mean that i could take some risk with some rust on this truck?

 

It's an option, same as frame replacement, it just depends on how far the rust has gone. Just as most problems, anything can be fixed with enough money. Unfortunately, most us weren't born into money, so we've got to come at problems differently.

I think your mechanic has a good idea to stop putting money into it, and I like that he's honorable enough to respect you enough as a customer to not keep throwing your money into a literal rotting pit--some won't.

Also note that it's about $400 in only parts for full rear, or full front kits, or $200 per corner. If you need both kits, it will be closing in on $800 in only parts.

A rough rule of thumb for labor costs is that it's about double the parts cost. $400 in parts will be roughly $800 in labor for a shop to install, so about $1200 out the door, for fixing a small rusted section in one half of the frame. $2400 if both kits need to be used.

This is where doing work yourself can drastically alter the equation with the injection of 'free labor'-- but, no offense intended, if you already had the capability, you wouldn't be asking for the advice. Firemen don't take suggestions from the crowd!

And that still only fixes the two common areas prone to suspension forces. rot also tends to happen in the middle section as well. It's a less critical area, subject to less forces, but can still leave your one-piece truck in two pieces if it gets bad enough.

And this is where the $1200 repair becomes a stopgap. No one is going to be able to tell you how long the stopgap will work, only that it fixed the worst of the hemorrhage. But the thing about hemorrhages is that they're difficult to stop.

Only you and your mechanic can answer if the $1200 cost is suitable enough to get the truck functional for another unknown 3-36 months that you can put yourself in a better space to change your situation for a newer vehicle. Your mechanic might even refuse to not install something like that because of the stopgap, and the large cost, and I'd take that advice as well--a mechanic that's willing to be honest with you, while losing immediate work is well worth their price.

For me, I figure i can inject a losing horse with a lot of juice to make it a less-losing horse, but I'm still stuck with a losing horse. Sometimes horses need to be put down, and it's time to bet on a new horse. . And now Kenny Rodgers The Gambler is running around my head!

 

thank you again soundman! no i decided not to try to fix my 96. but i was wondering about whether that rust on the $9000 2009 here that i looked might need something built over it. i am about to see, today, the other $11,900 one and look at its rust. this is at a high-powered rich ann arbor dealership for chevys and caddies, but they have about 5 tacomas for less that $20,000. i forget which one we will see today, which year it is, but it sounded good, with only 70,000 miles on it. i may not have money by that time, but i will look it over carefully.

i'm still wondering about the 9,000 one. will see it again today on our way to ann arbor. gonna examine the rust again.am having difficulty knowing how much rust is a deal-breaker. flaking down onto my hands when i scrape it with fingernails? i see one quarter-sized hole (will check that again today, it might have been a structural hole just caked with rust) and two pea-sized holes? but when i tapped the rails with a hammer all the way from near one wheel to near another i got nothing but solid, high-pitched pings. too much rust?

thanks again.

 

Just remember that the 2nd Gen frames rust out from the inside (the boxed section right behind the front wheels). However much rust you see on the outside, there will be more inside that section. You can kind of get a phone picture inside there, but it still won't tell you the full picture. And it's almost a guarantee that any "good deal" on an older Tacoma involves frame rust (or an accident).

Are any of you actually finding a $2000 running truck of any make? I thought those days were long gone.

If you need a truck, and are on a budget, it's hard to ignore the 2nd gen Nissan Frontier. I'd take a hard look at those options (but you must look later than 2010 due to radiator/ transmission issues). Not as popular as a Tacoma (so cheaper) and more basic, but they are solid trucks.

 

thank you, and yes soundman found three ford rangers for $2000 and they all seem to be working.

thanks for the tip about nissans. i had a nissan in the 90s and would strap
a canoe to it and go to ny state. that car seemed to love to go 80. good memory!

 

schlappe
seppel, does the nissan frontier have a frame problem?

 

the 2009 taco for $9000 that i saw yesterday and was unsure of the seriousness of the rust on an otherwise very good truck, today had been jacked up to $11,995. they knew i was interested and had inspected it closely and then they did this! not cool.

saw the 2003 with 72,000 miles for (i thought) $11,950 . it had just come to the lot and was now going for 10,900. i looked it over well. no leaks in the engine compartment, nice bed, paint good but rust beginning under the skin at each wheel well, but none around the doors. started it up instantly but loud, like it needs a muffler. looked decent. was gonna drive it later. then i started getting under it and scraping the rust with my fingernails and dinging the rails with a hammer. a lot of sand-like rust was falling but i found no holes of monster lumps of rust.

had gotten halfway when a different salesman came out and said i couldn't hit it with a hammer or his boss would have a kitten. i told him that these were light dings and they were not damaging anything and all, but he was freaking out, so i packed up my cardboard and hammer and screwdriver and flash light and got wifey and we started leaving. my salesman came out, what is going on?? i told him and he did not want me to leave and said i could take it to another shop if i wanted, but this is 40 miles from home and we only get to start at 3pm in the rush hour through detroit and ann arbor, so i kept walking, after she and i had a talk. i later began to worry that maybe i should not have left, but i had done it. we'll see. see if he calls tomorrow. he had asked me how it looked and i said pretty good except for the rust around the wheel wells and the muffler and that the frame had seemed good at first and then got a little less good. maybe i should have continued with him but when i am blocked i often block back. we'll see if he will call tomorrow. wondering if i made a mistake here.

meanwhile, i have looked into switching to a nissan frontier and found one 85 miles away for $9,900. studying tacoma world's debate over them vs the tacoma i found some strong defenses of nissan,, saying they are less likely to rot out, and since i am paranoid about that i may go with one of them. will search a bit more tomorrow. meanwhile the 2009 that went up to $11,9 guys want to work something out with me but i have doubts about their rust.

financing that is based on house assessments will nto work at all because tho my house is very good there are dumps nearby (inner city detroit, tho i do love it) and that wrecks the equity value of the good homes, and there are a very large number of them, very large.

got to solve this soon. thanks to all for the help, especially to soundman.

 

Every car in Michigan can rust out, but I don't know of any massive issues on the Frontier like we saw on the Tacos (three generations worth on the Taco, as well).

Of course, I haven't researched Frontiers as much, and I wouldn't get a recall notice in the mail like I did for my Taco. You could try searching on any Frontier forums as well.

My main point was that of you have a similarly priced Frontier and Tacoma, the Frontier is likely in better condition (just due to the Taco premium).

 

Also, when you do buy something, research and select your rust prevention of choice (e.g. fluid film, wool wax, hiring it out, etc.). Living in the south, I haven't done any of that, but there is plenty of information on this site.

 

I don't think walking away from a high pressure sales situation is ever a mistake, lol.

 

yeah i feel ok today. as we drove away i told my wife that yes i hit their power move with one of my own (walking out) and that was good if the power struggle continues, but maybe i should have stayed anyway. but i decided that no, i was not wrong. we agreed that i might resume with them if the guy calls me today. well, strangely, he did not call but sent me a weird email saying he was sorry that he missed me yesterday. he must have confused me with someone else. anyway, had i gone back it would have been tough for me, as i was unsure how seriously to take the rust that i did find under the half of the rails that i was able to examine. (the result was no holes, no big rust bulges, but a lot of grains of rust falling as i scraped the rail with my fingernails and a piled-up deposit of loose rust where there was a joint with a bar from above coming down and forming a kind of cup that had accumulated a lot of loose rust. all my pings with my hammer seemed solid, but there was a long area where the rust was dark from an apparently-not-recent leak of something, and the rust there sounded differently, but not as if the rail was bad. this is the best i could do at analyzing the rust. i could not conclude if it was a deal-breaker or not.) my uncertainty abut my own inspection of rust on this truck would have made another session with the hot-shot salesman pretty tense and uncomfortable for me. (this guy, to be honest, was not too bad a guy and was not the one telling me i could not hammer on the frame.)

so i am glad i didn't go back.

so now i am a bit lost. i am tired of stressing out over frames and scratching off rust and being unable to know if it is bad enough to be a deal-breaker. my own tacoma, a 96, sits in the driveway with a rotted-out frame right now, so i am paranoid about this issue. am thinking seriously of switching my searches to nissan frontiers, as the debate here on tacoma world essentially said there was less worry about frames, and they tended to cost less but be very reliable. do not have some of the features of a tacoma, but those are not essential to me. i have located one 85 miles from here, a 2014 for $9995. there are all sorts of them on facebook marketplace, and i don't know how to assess them. prices on marketplace, also for tacomas, are lower than elsewhere, but i don't know what to make of that.

so right now i have spent several weeks deeply into this and now am a bit lost. this forum has been a big help tho. and thank you for your answers.

 

This. I remember hearing about vehicle sales "so you fell in love for a day, so what?"

Better to go with your gut, always.

 

ispoke to a guy in albion, 85 miles west of here, about the 2014 frontier for $9995 and he told me he is on salary and he sounded very helpful. i told him of my worries and he aid he was going to go right away out to look at and drive that truck and would use his notes of my questions to assess it. i thought this was an outstanding offer. he will call me later. he also said that he has a lot of contact with the service guys and he does not see a lot of frame issues coming in there (this was also stated more than once in the frontier vs. tacoma debate on tacoma world that i read and mentioned yesterday).

this sound very good. $9995 will give me a $188/month car payment and allow me to keep my $2000 down payment. I think 9995 is a low price for a 2014 truck, either tacoma or frontier and i like what he is saying.

he just called and says he drove it just now and it is a very good truck, runs very well. very little rust, good tires, no leaks anywhere. it would be a $188/month monthly payment and allow me to keep my possible down payment. i will probably go there tomorrow and likely buy it, barring any deal-breaker. a 2014. 136,000 miles on it. no rust on the body, even wear on the tires, no leaks, this sounds really good!!

i no longer feel lost!

and thanks again for all the help i have gotten on here. this forum has people honest enough to admit the virtues of their rival's brand, virtues at least for s struggling guy like me. soundman and shlappesepple, thanks to you especially!! i will remain a member of this forum and read and maybe contribute if there is a need.

 

Nissan Frontier is a great truck
Yes prior to 2010 -2005 had that radiator issue but if you find a manual it doesn’t matter
But 2012 up they are super solid in auto
My 2010 / manual I sold with 0ver 250 k miles and it ran perfect . Only thing I did was a radiator, front hubs , shocks , struts and brakes / tires . Otherwise it was an awesome truck

 

i closed the deal today, will get it friday after detailing. got the monthly note down to 172$ due to a 3000 deposit. thanks for all the help i got in here. don't know how i would have come out without you all.