Horn Out - Its not the fuse, relay, or clock spring - frustrated!

RedSoxRobbe · Oct 10, 2020

Jimmyh said: ↑

Sounds like you may have forgot to reconnect the ground in the steering wheel when you replaced the spiral cable.
Click to expand...

Nah - that was the first connect before the air bag connections.
It was out before that.

But yeah, good place to focus.
Thanks.

RedSoxRobbe · Oct 10, 2020

norsea said: ↑

So, please provide that info so we can see the overall picture of how things are wired.
I have no idea what you electrical background is
Click to expand...

I'm working on getting it together, today Is hella rainy, or I'd go get some pics of the setup.
I can also draw up a diagram.

I was an ET in the Navy and have a fairly extensive electronics background, but have to be honest when I have NOT done much direct electrical work on the truck (with the exception of a BlueSea junction box and a Switchpro.

Thanks.

Jimmyh · Oct 10, 2020

norsea said: ↑

And, ignorance is bliss!
Click to expand...

LOL. Yes I guess it is.

TnShooter · Oct 10, 2020

norsea said: ↑

OK

The wiring diagram is a good place to start. But, it does not show what you installed in the horn circuit; this based on your statement above, that you installed, "Hella Supertones years ago.".

So, next we need to see how those are wired and it would be nice to know what gauge wire you used between the battery and the relay and between the relay and the Hella horns.

It does no good to make assumptions about what you did because we would be shooting in the dark and that would be a complete waste of time.

So, please provide that info so we can see the overall picture of how things are wired. I continue to be concerned about that relay. That was caused by a lot of heat and wiring not capable of carrying the amperage of the Hella horns could well be the cause; it could lead to an engine compartment fire which is something you definitely do not want to encounter.

Once we have the wiring diagram for the entire horn circuitry we can decide how we want to go about trouble shoring the problem. The entire objective here is to keep that number of "things" that we have to open up to a minimum in our search for the problem.

I have no idea what you electrical background is; it is all too easy to waste a lot of time and effort chasing problems if you do not approach it with some sort of "scientific method". By this I mean that we need to look at the overall circuitry and decide what and where we want to test.

By way of an example I offer the following that was used to train telephone installer/repair people.

Phone line are much like the horn circuit. Two wires, one that has battery on it and the other that will have a ground on it.

In between the two ends that have the voltage on one wire and the ground on the other there is a switch.

In the case of the truck it is on the steering wheel and it is something we push to complete the circuit so the voltage goes through the horn seeking the ground. When the voltage meets the ground that completes the circuit and the horn makes its noise.

In the case of the telephone when you lift the handset from the cradle of the phone, the switch that was open when the buttons that the handset kept depressed were released will close. By the time you have the handset up to your ear you would hear what is called dial tone. All this because the voltage was able to pass through the telephone set and back to the phone company office from which the voltage came and the circuit to ground was completed.

Just like the horn.

In the case of the truck, the wiring is all in one place.

In the case of the telephone the wiring runs for 12 miles from the phone company office to your house, and back.

So, if you were the telephone guy you would have 12 miles of cable to check to locate the open wire or false ground on the wire that is keeping the phone from working. Just to keep it simple we will say there are 100 telephone poles between the phone company office and your house.

What is the MAXIMUM number of poles that you will have to climb in order to locate the problem?

We all know that the truck has connectors between the horn switch and the ground at the other side of the horn for the wiring.

The same is true for the telephone line; these are called access points.

So, we know that our wires in both cases are not a single piece of copper going from the battery to the ground.

Without the wiring diagram we have no idea how many connectors/access points there are in the circuit. Before we start climbing poles we need to know not only how many access points there are; we also need to know where they are; which poles they are on.

Same for the truck.

Back to the question about the MAXIMUM number of poles that you would need to climb. Again, to keep our example simple lets assume that each of the 100 poles is also an access point. You now have sufficient information to answer the question. If you came up with an answer prior to knowing the number of access points you were guessing; that is/was a complete waste of time and energy.

Figured it out?

The answer is very simple. Davide by two.

First we go the end point which is the telephone itself to see if there is dial tone. If not we know the problem could be in lots of places. So we must begin to eliminate the places the problem can be. Next we go to the location at the house were the wiring from the telephone pole come into the house. If there is no dial tone there we know the problem is not in the house and we now can attack the telephone poles themselves.

So 100 telephone poles decided by two equals 50 telephone poles. Go to the middle pole in the span and you will know if the problem is between the house and that point or the phone company office and that point.

Whichever it is, devide by two which means going to pole number 25 in the direction indicated d(house/office). Which direction is the problem?

Again, decide by two. And do it again. And again. And again.

Worst case you will have to climb 7 poles before you will have isolated the problem.

The same scientific method" should be applied to locating the problem with your horn.

Once you have isolated the segment of cable with the problem you now can go look for the cause. In the case of the telephone, it turns out that we are in the country and had to walk a mile of cable before we were able to spot the bullet hole in the cable that is causing the problem.

In the case of your truck I will not be surprised about anything we find because we have a lot to choose from given the additional equipment you installed.

I look forward to further adventures in isolating the problem with your horn; or is it horns? You never really did give us much info about the Hella horns and we have no idea if they are working or not. Or if they are even wired such that they sound when the stock horn is actuated.

Regards,

Jim
Click to expand...

I commend you for the help you are trying to offer.

BUT WHO USES A LAND LINE ANYMORE?

Waasheem · Oct 10, 2020

norsea said: ↑

OK

The wiring diagram is a good place to start. But, it does not show what you installed in the horn circuit; this based on your statement above, that you installed, "Hella Supertones years ago.".

So, next we need to see how those are wired and it would be nice to know what gauge wire you used between the battery and the relay and between the relay and the Hella horns.

It does no good to make assumptions about what you did because we would be shooting in the dark and that would be a complete waste of time.

So, please provide that info so we can see the overall picture of how things are wired. I continue to be concerned about that relay. That was caused by a lot of heat and wiring not capable of carrying the amperage of the Hella horns could well be the cause; it could lead to an engine compartment fire which is something you definitely do not want to encounter.

Once we have the wiring diagram for the entire horn circuitry we can decide how we want to go about trouble shoring the problem. The entire objective here is to keep that number of "things" that we have to open up to a minimum in our search for the problem.

I have no idea what you electrical background is; it is all too easy to waste a lot of time and effort chasing problems if you do not approach it with some sort of "scientific method". By this I mean that we need to look at the overall circuitry and decide what and where we want to test.

By way of an example I offer the following that was used to train telephone installer/repair people.

Phone line are much like the horn circuit. Two wires, one that has battery on it and the other that will have a ground on it.

In between the two ends that have the voltage on one wire and the ground on the other there is a switch.

In the case of the truck it is on the steering wheel and it is something we push to complete the circuit so the voltage goes through the horn seeking the ground. When the voltage meets the ground that completes the circuit and the horn makes its noise.

In the case of the telephone when you lift the handset from the cradle of the phone, the switch that was open when the buttons that the handset kept depressed were released will close. By the time you have the handset up to your ear you would hear what is called dial tone. All this because the voltage was able to pass through the telephone set and back to the phone company office from which the voltage came and the circuit to ground was completed.

Just like the horn.

In the case of the truck, the wiring is all in one place.

In the case of the telephone the wiring runs for 12 miles from the phone company office to your house, and back.

So, if you were the telephone guy you would have 12 miles of cable to check to locate the open wire or false ground on the wire that is keeping the phone from working. Just to keep it simple we will say there are 100 telephone poles between the phone company office and your house.

What is the MAXIMUM number of poles that you will have to climb in order to locate the problem?

We all know that the truck has connectors between the horn switch and the ground at the other side of the horn for the wiring.

The same is true for the telephone line; these are called access points.

So, we know that our wires in both cases are not a single piece of copper going from the battery to the ground.

Without the wiring diagram we have no idea how many connectors/access points there are in the circuit. Before we start climbing poles we need to know not only how many access points there are; we also need to know where they are; which poles they are on.

Same for the truck.

Back to the question about the MAXIMUM number of poles that you would need to climb. Again, to keep our example simple lets assume that each of the 100 poles is also an access point. You now have sufficient information to answer the question. If you came up with an answer prior to knowing the number of access points you were guessing; that is/was a complete waste of time and energy.

Figured it out?

The answer is very simple. Davide by two.

First we go the end point which is the telephone itself to see if there is dial tone. If not we know the problem could be in lots of places. So we must begin to eliminate the places the problem can be. Next we go to the location at the house were the wiring from the telephone pole come into the house. If there is no dial tone there we know the problem is not in the house and we now can attack the telephone poles themselves.

So 100 telephone poles decided by two equals 50 telephone poles. Go to the middle pole in the span and you will know if the problem is between the house and that point or the phone company office and that point.

Whichever it is, devide by two which means going to pole number 25 in the direction indicated d(house/office). Which direction is the problem?

Again, decide by two. And do it again. And again. And again.

Worst case you will have to climb 7 poles before you will have isolated the problem.

The same scientific method" should be applied to locating the problem with your horn.

Once you have isolated the segment of cable with the problem you now can go look for the cause. In the case of the telephone, it turns out that we are in the country and had to walk a mile of cable before we were able to spot the bullet hole in the cable that is causing the problem.

In the case of your truck I will not be surprised about anything we find because we have a lot to choose from given the additional equipment you installed.

I look forward to further adventures in isolating the problem with your horn; or is it horns? You never really did give us much info about the Hella horns and we have no idea if they are working or not. Or if they are even wired such that they sound when the stock horn is actuated.

Regards,

Jim
Click to expand...

Sounds like an answer I would give

MadRiverTaco · Oct 10, 2020

norsea said: ↑

OK

The wiring diagram is a good place to start. But, it does not show what you installed in the horn circuit; this based on your statement above, that you installed, "Hella Supertones years ago.".

So, next we need to see how those are wired and it would be nice to know what gauge wire you used between the battery and the relay and between the relay and the Hella horns.

It does no good to make assumptions about what you did because we would be shooting in the dark and that would be a complete waste of time.

So, please provide that info so we can see the overall picture of how things are wired. I continue to be concerned about that relay. That was caused by a lot of heat and wiring not capable of carrying the amperage of the Hella horns could well be the cause; it could lead to an engine compartment fire which is something you definitely do not want to encounter.

Once we have the wiring diagram for the entire horn circuitry we can decide how we want to go about trouble shoring the problem. The entire objective here is to keep that number of "things" that we have to open up to a minimum in our search for the problem.

I have no idea what you electrical background is; it is all too easy to waste a lot of time and effort chasing problems if you do not approach it with some sort of "scientific method". By this I mean that we need to look at the overall circuitry and decide what and where we want to test.

By way of an example I offer the following that was used to train telephone installer/repair people.

Phone line are much like the horn circuit. Two wires, one that has battery on it and the other that will have a ground on it.

In between the two ends that have the voltage on one wire and the ground on the other there is a switch.

In the case of the truck it is on the steering wheel and it is something we push to complete the circuit so the voltage goes through the horn seeking the ground. When the voltage meets the ground that completes the circuit and the horn makes its noise.

In the case of the telephone when you lift the handset from the cradle of the phone, the switch that was open when the buttons that the handset kept depressed were released will close. By the time you have the handset up to your ear you would hear what is called dial tone. All this because the voltage was able to pass through the telephone set and back to the phone company office from which the voltage came and the circuit to ground was completed.

Just like the horn.

In the case of the truck, the wiring is all in one place.

In the case of the telephone the wiring runs for 12 miles from the phone company office to your house, and back.

So, if you were the telephone guy you would have 12 miles of cable to check to locate the open wire or false ground on the wire that is keeping the phone from working. Just to keep it simple we will say there are 100 telephone poles between the phone company office and your house.

What is the MAXIMUM number of poles that you will have to climb in order to locate the problem?

We all know that the truck has connectors between the horn switch and the ground at the other side of the horn for the wiring.

The same is true for the telephone line; these are called access points.

So, we know that our wires in both cases are not a single piece of copper going from the battery to the ground.

Without the wiring diagram we have no idea how many connectors/access points there are in the circuit. Before we start climbing poles we need to know not only how many access points there are; we also need to know where they are; which poles they are on.

Same for the truck.

Back to the question about the MAXIMUM number of poles that you would need to climb. Again, to keep our example simple lets assume that each of the 100 poles is also an access point. You now have sufficient information to answer the question. If you came up with an answer prior to knowing the number of access points you were guessing; that is/was a complete waste of time and energy.

Figured it out?

The answer is very simple. Davide by two.

First we go the end point which is the telephone itself to see if there is dial tone. If not we know the problem could be in lots of places. So we must begin to eliminate the places the problem can be. Next we go to the location at the house were the wiring from the telephone pole come into the house. If there is no dial tone there we know the problem is not in the house and we now can attack the telephone poles themselves.

So 100 telephone poles decided by two equals 50 telephone poles. Go to the middle pole in the span and you will know if the problem is between the house and that point or the phone company office and that point.

Whichever it is, devide by two which means going to pole number 25 in the direction indicated d(house/office). Which direction is the problem?

Again, decide by two. And do it again. And again. And again.

Worst case you will have to climb 7 poles before you will have isolated the problem.

The same scientific method" should be applied to locating the problem with your horn.

Once you have isolated the segment of cable with the problem you now can go look for the cause. In the case of the telephone, it turns out that we are in the country and had to walk a mile of cable before we were able to spot the bullet hole in the cable that is causing the problem.

In the case of your truck I will not be surprised about anything we find because we have a lot to choose from given the additional equipment you installed.

I look forward to further adventures in isolating the problem with your horn; or is it horns? You never really did give us much info about the Hella horns and we have no idea if they are working or not. Or if they are even wired such that they sound when the stock horn is actuated.

Regards,

Jim
Click to expand...

This is a hilarious response in that it's so annoyingly long, yet also resonates with me. I used to work for VZ back in the day and deployed this exact reasoning when I was on strike duty.

KactusJack · Oct 11, 2020

TnShooter said: ↑

I commend you for the help you are trying to offer.

BUT WHO USES A LAND LINE ANYMORE?

Click to expand...

Those of us with shit for cell service at home.

RedSoxRobbe · Oct 13, 2020

Ok, so let me start by saying thanks to all of you.
It was a combo of a few things - @Wattapunk (I cleaned the contacts - again), @norsea (actually replaced all the fuses with good ones - again), @caribe (Thanks for the diagram), @EatSleepTacos for the local mental support, and @Jimmyh for the humor!

SO it works again

Clockspring needed to be replaced - I believe this - horn was not working, all checks I did fuse etc initially checked out with a clock spring.
The panic button triggered the horn, but the steering wheel didn't.
These (from my limited knowledge but tons of research) checked out against clockspring.
Let me prepare for the that'll rain down after I explain...
909% of this was probably my fault - and I'm good with admitting it - lol.

After changing the clock spring and all the checks above (all again after you all mentioned them), it did not work - NOR did the panic button this time (key).
Brain fart check - did I connect the new relay right?

Went back - double-checked relay plugs - Hell no - not right, idiot factor 10.
Re did em - and guess what.

So lesson learned - double/triple check - and when mentally frustrated - turn to your brothers for second guesses, diatribes, novels, and humor - while you breathe - reset and get-r-done.

Thanks again for the help!

RSR

EatSleepTacos · Oct 13, 2020

RedSoxRobbe[OP] said: ↑

Ok, so let me start by saying thanks to all of you.
It was a combo of a few things - @Wattapunk (I cleaned the contacts - again), @norsea (actually replaced all the fuses with good ones - again), @caribe (Thanks for the diagram), @EatSleepTacos for the local mental support, and @Jimmyh for the humor!

SO it works again

Clockspring needed to be replaced - I believe this - horn was not working, all checks I did fuse etc initially checked out with a clock spring.
The panic button triggered the horn, but the steering wheel didn't.
These (from my limited knowledge but tons of research) checked out against clockspring.
Let me prepare for the that'll rain down after I explain...
909% of this was probably my fault - and I'm good with admitting it - lol.

After changing the clock spring and all the checks above (all again after you all mentioned them), it did not work - NOR did the panic button this time (key).
Brain fart check - did I connect the new relay right?

Went back - double-checked relay plugs - Hell no - not right, idiot factor 10.
Re did em - and guess what.

So lesson learned - double/triple check - and when mentally frustrated - turn to your brothers for second guesses, diatribes, novels, and humor - while you breathe - reset and get-r-done.

Thanks again for the help!

RSR
Click to expand...

Ohhh yeah!! I forgotten you were local and I gave some wheel bearing advice! Glad to hear it’s all fixed now.

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Horn Out - Its not the fuse, relay, or clock spring - frustrated!

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