LiFePO4, AGM, lithium ion?

So, can you give me an example of where an AGM battery has needed replacement prematurely due to a stock charging system?

I'm just wondering. I read all kinds of comments about how it's going to be a problem, but I consistently read about people using these types of batteries without any problems.

 

I put a meter on my truck before and usually see somewhere around 13.9 - 14.0 Range, the last AGM I used in a vehicle not "designed" for one was an Odyssey Battery and it went 11 years.

 

Everstart maxx batteries from Walmart.

Walmart are everywhere.
3 year free replacement warranty.
Receipt is not needed for replacement.

Interesting test video
https://youtu.be/h7rTcBanpMk

 

Side note to the AGM debate..

It just feels like the pineapple on pizza debate. There's always a few people saying that it's wrong and doesn't work, but it's actually quite delicious.

That ought to get some people riled up.

 

Let me give you an example of what happens. Let's say a battery is rated at 600 cca and has a typical degradation of 5% a year when charged optimally, but looses an extra 2% a year if the termination voltage is too low. After 4 years that battery would now have have a cca of 488 if charged optimally, but a cca of 448 if charged with too low of a termination voltage. If your car only takes 200A to start (this is what our Tacoma's take btw) then the person with the AGM battery will still think it's doing great because it starts their truck just fine. Now play it out a few more years and the optimally charged battery may now need replacement at year 7 while the low voltage battery may need replacement at year 6.

How many people would realize they got a year less life out of their battery vs thinking hey this is great I got 6 years out of this battery?

 

When my stock battery died (at less than 10k) I replaced it with a group 35 odyssey agm battery. That was probably five years ago. Still going strong.

 

Um... Taste is a preference. Battery life vs charging voltages is something that can be measured.

 

I haven't done much research on the LiFePO4 batteries but I know they have 10 or 15 years of expected recharging. Have one in a Bluetti power supply

I'm not worrying about it. I'm on my 3rd oil change since June. I get out ahead of my maintenance. Also have a motorhome that is probably due soon for a battery and this forum is pretty good for car talk in general.

 

If this AGM battery lasts 6 years, I'll be thrilled since my OEM battery was getting flimsy after 3. The only battery I've seen last that long was the Panasonic that came in my '03 4Runner.

Maybe an unexpected part of this equation is the parasitic drain newer cars have. How do lead acid batteries hold up to fuel (emissions) systems running hours after the vehicle is shut off VS an AGM battery?

 

Wow, you have a great sense of humor. You must be very popular.

I'm still waiting for this example where someone had an AGM battery fail prematurely due to improper charging voltage.

 

The biggest advantage of AGM is their ability to take more vibration etc without damage. The main killer of batteries is heat. In the summer batteries get killed by the summer heat and after time they don't have enough cca to start the vehicle when it gets cold in the winter. Parasitic drain has minimal impact as long as the battery isn't allowed to drain too low which will result in sulfation.

 

Engineer. We speak in terms of data.

You will never see a case of what you are asking for because that's not what happens. Any given sample size of one (individual persons experience) will have normal deviation that could be caused by any number of factors.

Lead acid batteries is super old tech and is well understood. Charging at too low of voltage WILL result in more sulfation (and thus shorter life) than charging at the proper voltage. What it won't cause is a catastrophic failures that would result in a warranty replacement you are looking for.

 

Well, I guess I'll know in a few years if it's really an issue worth considering. My 4Runner sits most of the week, but I rarely drive short distances. I also live in a pretty varied climate.

If this AGM battery shits the bed in the next 4 years, I'll go back to lead acid and eat some crow.

I just haven't heard many people actually complain about AGM batteries.

 

That's not what I said at all. I said a catastrophic failure isn't what happens but rather faster degradation due to sulfation on the plates is what happens. I even gave you an example of how this manifests over time and why you don't hear any complaints.

Believe what you want. I'm out. Merry Christmas!

 

I'm not talking about catastrophic failure. I'm talking about actual problems, like being unable to start the vehicle.

I haven't heard about any real problems with AGM batteries, only theoretical problems. That's my point.

Maybe the undercharging issue isn't as big of an issue in real use as it is on paper.

All of that aside, Merry Christmas to you as well!

It's refreshing to be able to disagree with someone on the internet without them calling me names.

 

I'd suggest reading the battery thread:
https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/the-northstar-agm-battery-voltage-booster-upgrade.604478/

It is printed directly on top of the battery what the charging voltage should be to maintain the battery. An AGM is higher than lead acid and Toyota's stock charging specs are insufficient for AGM as confirmed by taking some simple readings but also confirmed by one of the most respected USA battery manufactures. To argue otherwise is just naive. If you do not adjust your charge voltage for AGM, then the battery will degrade, this is fact as confirmed by Northstar. It will be slow and gradual and you likely won't notice. But then that top dollar you paid extra performance for is slipping away. Why bother paying a premium to start handicapping it immediately with inadequate charging, might as well just saved some money and just bought the lead acid.

So yes, the AGM will continue to work for a long time at inadequate charge on the low bar of being able to start your vehicle, and you are also paying a premium for performance that the battery will be unable to maintain over time due to charge neglect. If you'd like to fully understand why this is an issue, google search "battery sulfation" and understand what inadequate charge does to a battery and why it causes it to degrade. It isn't theoretical, it is factual. That said, many do not charge AGM's correctly. You'll get reduced performance and shorter life and likely not notice.

 

What if I paid extra due to the battery's ability to withstand vibration?

I'm trying to figure out what I'm really losing out on with my stock charging system. Will the battery fail after 5 years instead of 10?

Why are other people buying AGM batteries? I thought they were supposed to hold up better to vibration and other types of off-road abuse.

 

Sure, you paid extra for extreme vibration resistance, and then killed it early with sulfation. Kinda a wash/pointless. Unless you live in the Australian outback where all driving is off road or partake in extreme desert racing, vibration isn't going kill your lead acid battery any more than compared to intentionally sulfating your battery.

Typically I'd say most people buy AGMs for increased power density, deep cycle, reserve capacity, increased life span, zero maintenance, and no spill. Improper charging reduces the first 4 of those. You can run camp gear etc far longer off an AGM than you can a lead acid of the same size. I run AGMs for increased voltage and increased performance in every electrical component and incandescent lighting component. Truck also starts faster. It has increased ability to hold a charge over a long period of time without starting. Vastly increased performance in extreme cold weather vs lead acid. The greater reserve capacity allowing for greater power draw when camping without affecting the trucks ability to start. More power, deeper reserves, higher voltage. But the performance advantages degrade over time if the battery sulfates, which is caused by low charge voltage.

You can also get a stand alone battery charger/maintainer to plug in to an outlet an periodically charge the AGM at proper voltage to prevent sulfating. Or you can forego it all together an just acknowledge you will not get the max performance and life out of the battery that you paid top dollar for and be ok with that.

 

The older trucks are the ones that have the voltage hack. The newer ones are more complicated. If your truck is 2015 or older, it has an alt-s circuit and you simply replace the fuse. If it is 2016+ then it requires ECU reprograming.

 

I figured that if the AGM battery will hold up better to the type of abuse I throw at it, that would be worth the cost. Extended lifespan/capacity wasn't really my concern. Although, I hope I can get more than 3 solid years out of it.

I understand that it won't operate to its full potential on the truck's stock charging system, but I just haven't seen enough situations where it was an actual complaint to turn me off to it. It seems like they hold up long enough without special treatment.

On a side note, I might take your advice about throwing it on a charger periodically. I appreciate that advice.