Lithium starting battery

Hoping to start a general discussion to help inform my next decision...

24f lead acid battery is dead. I run a 55qt dometic fridge, occasionally 12v water pump, and charge phones. I’m typically parked only for 12 hours but sometimes I get lucky and can steal away for days.

I’m trying to avoid the cost and hassle of Dual batteries (I have a ‘06 so the ABS module is in the way of the convenient second battery Location).

seems like most ppl go for a 31AGM deep cycle/starter combo with a jump pack for emergencies. I was going to go this route, but pricing it out looks like $400 for battery, $1-150 for a battery tray that can handle, and $50 for the alternator booster. It will not help my taco lean and worse may cause sheet metal fatigue from off-roading.

I recently found a marine lithium starting/deep cycle battery, approx group 24 size, in either 60 ($529)or 80Ah ($729), with 1200 CCA’s. They weigh under 25lbs.

I know they will have no problem starting the truck, and the manufacturer states the BMS is designed as a drop-in lead acid replacement. Btw I have a 200amp alternator and upgraded big3.

Everyone talks about the 80-90% discharge Ability of a lithium, vs 50% for AGM. This makes the 80Ah LiFePO4 on paper the same as a group 31AGM, but is it really? I can’t discharge to that depth anyway while still maintaining the voltage needed to start the truck.

Am I kooking this? How should I be thinking about it? Someone slap me straight.

 

Well, I don't do much slapping so I may not have much to offer.

This line in you message concerns me:

"I recently found a marine lithium starting/deep cycle battery, approx group 24 size, in either 60 ($529)or 80Ah ($729), with 1200 CCA’s. They weigh under 25lbs."

My concern is that this contradicts everything I have read about lithium ion batteries. Now, that does not mean much because things change; quickly. It could well be that it is possible to get a lithium ion battery that can survive the harsh treatment of starting a vehicle, over and over and over again. But, as mentioned, everything I have read tells me that this is NOT the application for lithium ion batteries.

I did this research because I wanted the lighter weight, smaller foot print and higher AH rating. If things have changed and these batteries can survive this harsh treatment, great. I would like to know who the manufacturer of the batter you reference is so that I can go read the data. If this is true, I am all in.

Regards,

Jim

 

That’s much cheaper than I’ve heard the cost of lithium batteries being.

I’ve seen other discussions here that a quality marine lithium battery is the best option for an Overland rig as long as you can stomach the cost.

 

The battery is from Amped Outdoors, though I’ve seen a few other manufacturers with similar platforms, albeit with a higher price tag.

I’m still waiting to get flamed, what’s taking so long?

 

The only reason not to run a lithium battery is the price, by every other metric they are a better option.

The reasons the Amped Outdoors version is cheap is because it has a terrible warranty, 3 years vs 7 years for Lithium Pros.

 

my antigravity battery atx 20hd should be here on wednesday. I will let you guys know how it goes. under 6 pounds 30 amp with 900 cranking amps. I have a 300amp battery bank in the back for camping power.

 

Does a lithium starter/deep cycle have much of an advantage besides weight? Let’s assume for easy math a 100Ah AGM and 100Ah lithium. The lithium can be discharged 100% and the AGM 50%. That gives the lithium twice the capacity, BUT since it must also function as a starter, I cannot drain it to zero. If I need ~10.5V to start the truck, are these batteries now essentially equal in reserve capacity before I reach 10.5V, or does the lithium chemistry allow for longer/greater draws before it hits that threshold?

 

if U dont somebody else will

that will turn out good................or not
the universe decides

lead......agm......lith have all been tested comparatively
each has diverse merit

deep discharge is an issue for ANY battery

what many DONT Consider is operating while a battery is in ' Deficit ' !!!!!!
the simple explantion is the battery Does NOT have a healthy/sufficent charge
( will show full volts on a meter )

while the needle will show 12.....13volts
cranking Amps are at the level of the system ( Varies each vehicle )
& the amps Used.........have NOT been replaced !

recently someone posted having made 10 stops in 1 evening ..........
fact in Reality when he parked it in the diveway after all those stops
the Batt was in ' Deficit ' !!

it Never recovered being cranked that many times !!!!

cranked the following morning still in Deficit........
45min commute to work & its still minus minus
thats 11 cranks & recovery that might have offset 2........maybe 3

very different than if U leave home......fill up then knock out 3/4tank hi way b4 breaking for lunch
the Batt would NO Longer be in Deficit
the 1hour lunch gives it a float
later Ur already at the hotel campground
Batt at the Full level o the system

2 very different scenarios...............the First being the Most prevalent

i dont do what U do
i can only imagine & ask
would a portable solar panel sitting in sun offset to an extent Ur usage
iv seen them at RV dealers

 

OK - The following is from the Amped Outdoors web site:

"12v Lithium LiFePO4 1200CCA Marine Starting Battery

Specialized to start your marine motors while still having enough capacity to run the 12v electronics on your boat without putting a series drain on your battery.


SPECIFICATIONS:
Nominal Voltage: 12V
Nominal Capacity: 60-80Ah
Discharge Cut-Off: 10V
Charge Cut-Off: 14.65V
Charge Current: 50A Max
Cold Cranking Amps: 1200
Charge Temperature: 0℃ – 45℃
Discharge Temperature: -20℃ – 60℃
Charge Method: CC/CV
Life Cycle: 2000-5000

Warranty: 3yrs.

Weight: (60Ah 16lbs 9oz) (80Ah 20lbs 14oz)

Dimension:L*W*H: 10 1/4" x 6 7/8" x 8" (8 3/4 to top of terminal) - 60Ah and 80Ah"

As I understand it, the real issue with the lithium ion batteries is their ability to maintain the amount of amperage needed to turn over the engine for a sustained period of time. Apparently the discharge rate for these batteries is extremely high. From what I have read lithium ion batteries must have have more technology in them than just the ability to hold a charge. It appears that in order to provide the repeated amperage necessary to start a fossil fuel engine something more than just the battery is needed; something like capacitors that can offer the high amperage for a short duration that is needed to turn over a fossil fuel engine without a huge draw on the power source (thinking gasoline and diesel here). My F250 diesel requires two (2) large 12V batteries to be able to sustain the amperage needed to start the engine; diesels have a lot more mass to move (pistons/crankshaft) than a gasoline engine and a compression ratio that is also much higher than gasoline engines.

So, the question is what is the technology in this battery and how long will it survive the harsh environment that is the amperage draw when a vehicle is started? Nothing on their web site provides any information about this at all.

With only a 3 year warranty given the harsh requirements I am somewhat concerned about being leader in this area by way of investing my hard earned cash into such a battery. It could well be that these are OK and will last for years. The point is that right now their is no data associated with any sort of track record for this technology. And part of the issue is, what is the technology?

Regards,

Jim

 

I’ve since learned that unfortunately most of these lithium starting/deep cycle combos will not work, as least as a drop-in replacementA in the engine bay, because the temperatures will be too high for the chemistry and BMS. There is 1 company that at least advertises its products ability to withstand engine bay temps while operating in up to 140f ambient, but the max Ah offering is 60, and they are considerably more expensive than some of the previously named options, to the point that it becomes way too cost prohibitive to entertain.

 

I don’t think lithium batteries can be charged when the temperature is below freezing.

 

i have been running my atx 20hd from antigravity batteries now for 2 weeks and I have had zero problems. It weights 5.2 pounds has 900 cranking amps and is 30 amps. Very pleased. I also live in denver, i see 100 degree temps all summer, zero problems thus far.

 

2 weeks is hardly enough time to determine if excessive heat will deteriorate the effectiveness of your battery.

 

I will find out i guess. Lithium is superior to lead acid in any sort of way. I run lithium in all of my contractor grade powertools day in and day out and have had zero problems in the 8 plus years i have used them. I think I will experience the same durability and survivability i see in my 12 amp dewalt 60v batters as i will see in a 12v 30amp lithium battery. Just saying.

 

I don’t disagree with your thoughts but 2 weeks is a little early to be claiming heat isn’t a concern. Give it a year where it sees some freezing temps and several hundred more starts before declaring victory

 

@summithightacoma22.

Your power tool batteries and chargers have circuit boards and computer programs to control charge rate and discharge rate. The charger will not charge a Li-on battery that is too cold. IIRC, that temperature is around 32F.

Guys, be very careful with Li-on batts. They can be very temperamental without the proper controls. Tesla has had many issues with Li-on as well as many power tool mfgrs. Air cargo has extreme requirements for air freight of Li-on batts.

When a Li-on batt goes bad, it can result in a self-sustained fire. This fire can not be extinguished with normal extinguishers. It must be smothered with sand. Then the sand needs to remain for several hours. If the sand is removed too early, the fire can re-ignite.

I have first hand experience with a Li-on battery failure when working in a power tool Reliability Lab. Trust me on this. Yes, I know I'm the F'n New Guy.

 

the atx-20hd has built in circuitry to help control these types of things. It isnt just a brick of lithium. People have been using them in motor sport applications for years. The hd designation at the end is a newer batter from them designed for this type of abuse. But for for sure i will be keeping updates. I am just as interested as you and extremely skeptical of a 5 pound battery being able to perform in the long run.

 

The only issue with lithium is that it doesn't take a charge below 20-25 degrees F. That problem is close to being solved too. I think Battleborn has a new battery coming soon that can charge much colder. With all the changes coming in this technology, I would talk directly to manufacturers about what is safe and effective. The electronics package inside the battery makes all the difference. Half of the comments in this thread are either outdated or wrong.

 

During the times you’re parked, would it be better to buy a generator to power those things?

 

I contacted antigravity. The atx-20hd has a safe operating range of -4f- 140f. So all you internet nay sayers are completely making things up. The only warning i recieved was on using a winch with the battery as winchs use alot of amperage.