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Lug/shaky feeling when going from neutral to 1st gear

Discussion in '4 Cylinder' started by bluejays, Apr 26, 2009.

  1. Apr 26, 2009 at 9:34 PM
    #1
    bluejays

    bluejays [OP] Well-Known Member

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    hey guys, is it bad for the car when you feel the lugging/shaking feeling? my car doesn't like to go into 1st gear when i am rolling at low mph. the car has to basically be at a stopped point to put into first gear. i always feel a resistance when i try to put it into first say like when i am rolling at about under 5 mph. instead, i just put it into 2nd since that's my only option. is it okay to put it into 2nd? i just get kind of worried since i am sort of new to stick shift driving. thanks!
     
  2. Apr 27, 2009 at 6:22 AM
    #2
    98tacoma27

    98tacoma27 is gooder 'en chicken Moderator

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    First, it's a truck. :D Fill out your profile so we know what model, year, engine, etc.

    First gear is fairly low. I could never get my first gen into first unless I was stopped. What your are describing is normal.
     
  3. Apr 27, 2009 at 6:50 AM
    #3
    jflan

    jflan Well-Known Member

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    98tacoma27 is all over it.

    I'll add that no, the "lugging" that you describe isn't desirable, but it's sometimes necessary....just don't mash down on the throttle while it's lugging.
    I think it was Moses Ludel (Jeep guru) that said it puts a "side load" on the front trans bearing.
    I know that from experience, a worn trans will make more noise while lugging, probably due to worn bearings.

    Lugging is a good thing when on ice/snow when taking off....shift early (lug a bit) and you will slip less as you get up to speed.

    I've got the 5 speed by Aisin, my 4th one in various rigs and a half-million miles later....they don't like to go into 1st above (guessing) 3mph.
    One likely spot to have to deal with this is in bumper-bumper traffic. I look at the flow and decide whether it's going to be 1st gear action or 2nd gear action. Don't bounce back and forth between 1st and 2nd.
    I'll stay in 1st up to about 2500 RPM before I decide to grab 2nd.
     
  4. Apr 27, 2009 at 7:59 AM
    #4
    Ry1984

    Ry1984 Well-Known Member

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    everything you described is perfectly normal as stated above :)
     
  5. Apr 29, 2009 at 9:50 AM
    #5
    motoretro

    motoretro Well-Known Member

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    Is this the same trans used in the GM Colorado/Canyon series of trucks??? My feelings are the rear end gear ratio for manual trans 4 cylinder 05-09 Tacos is wrong and should be 3:60 -3:75. The vehicle would not lug half as much and would be more usable as tow vehicle. Easier on the clutch and allows you to use 2nd gear much more often at low speeds without going down to 1st gear(which is next to impossible) at anything above 5-7 mph.
    Motoretro
     
  6. Apr 29, 2009 at 9:56 AM
    #6
    NAAC3TACO

    NAAC3TACO Just east of crazy

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    Yes, but the gear ratios are different. I doubt that they are interchangeable, but I've been wrong before.
     
  7. Apr 29, 2009 at 10:05 AM
    #7
    motoretro

    motoretro Well-Known Member

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    I don't want to replace mine w/ GM/Asin unit, just curious. I do wonder if the GM/Asin trans has same issues with difficulty in dropping down into 1 st gear at anything above a roll? I am looking for a more refined replacement thou. This truck could be so much better w/ correct rear gear ratio and a smooth shifting trans.

    Motoretro
     
  8. Apr 29, 2009 at 5:45 PM
    #8
    jflan

    jflan Well-Known Member

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    No, it doesn't work that way. The lower the number, the taller the gear ratio.
    Having said that, the stock 4:10 differential is about perfect for the 2.7L power band.
    If were any shorter (ie. 4:56), RPM at freeway speed would not be favorable for fuel economy in 5th gear and you'd "use up" 1st gear too fast.
    All the above goes out the window if you go to a larger diameter tire....then you need to calculate and possibly re-gear to stay in the optimum RPM range.
    I have an Aisin 5 speed in a Jeep with a 3:73 and I wish it was a 4:10.

    Don't know what trans is in those GM rigs, you'd have to research it. Your GM parts guy should be able to tell you what it is and what the ratios are from the Service Manual.
     
  9. Apr 29, 2009 at 6:48 PM
    #9
    motoretro

    motoretro Well-Known Member

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    Motoretro
     
  10. Apr 29, 2009 at 8:05 PM
    #10
    jflan

    jflan Well-Known Member

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    @ motoretro

    What I said was based on what I have which is in my vehicle profile to the left. I didn't see yours posted.
    It's a 4x4 with 4:10 diff 's
    As stated, I wouldn't want anything taller. I hate 1st gear in the Jeep (Aisin w/3:73) so much that I use low range to pull the boat out at times depending on the ramp.
    To each his own, some are runners, some are crawlers. :p

    As an aside, the Jeep shipped with 3:31's and was changed to 3:73's....they should have gone with 4:10's
     
  11. Apr 30, 2009 at 5:49 AM
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    06dak

    06dak Well-Known Member

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    Motoretro,

    If you notice really all the 5 lug tires and 6 lug tires are the same size, they just change ratio a bit. I think they use the smallest tire & engine to certify the car for EPA fuel economy numbers, which is why the other sizes don't quite match EPA preditctions.

    I have a PreRunner with the 4.10s. At highway speeds I'm running 2600~2700 (70-75mph) and it seems a bit high for fuel economy, as I only get between 22 and 23mpg. That being said I don't have to shift into 4th to pass or make it up hills, which is better than the 5 lugs with 3.31s. But I've often wondered what the truck would be like with the V6 rear end (3:73) which would be at the RPM range you described on the freeway (better MPG) but still have decent pulling power on the freeway and at startup.

    Once I get my boat I'm going to try a few ramps and decide if it's just OK with the 4.10 pulling it out of the ramp or if it has a little excess power. If it has excess, I may try to find a donor V6 rear end with LSD and do a swap down the road (it'd have to be way cheap though). First is really not so useful day to day with the 4.10 since I don't drag race it.
     
  12. Apr 30, 2009 at 9:32 AM
    #12
    drew02a

    drew02a Rocking your mom's world Since 1997

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    Back to the problem with 1st. I found that if I shift into 2nd then 1st it goes much easier. Also Double Clutching helps.
     
  13. Apr 30, 2009 at 7:33 PM
    #13
    motoretro

    motoretro Well-Known Member

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    I you want to part with your 4:10, I might be interested. I can get it down to 3:70 w/ a tire swap which i planned to do regardless. PM me if your interested.

    Motoretro
     
  14. May 1, 2009 at 11:25 PM
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    bluejays

    bluejays [OP] Well-Known Member

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    what do you mean by double clutching? i am already rolling in neutral, then when it gets to 2mph, it is so low that I want to put it into 1st, but i can't. also, what do you mean by putting it into 2nd? you mean, push clutch in, put into 2nd, then 1st right away? is this normal for it to be so hard to put into 1st gear at such a low rolling speed?
     
  15. May 2, 2009 at 5:29 AM
    #15
    jflan

    jflan Well-Known Member

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    I was watching the speedo yesterday on the freeway in stop and go traffic. I can get into 1st at about 5mph with my present rig.
    I almost never go from neutral to 1st, I always go to 2nd then into 1st. Whether I engage 2nd or not depends on my speed but I almost always travel through 2nd on my way to 1st.

    As you know, if your wheel speed is a little too high it won't go into 1st. I apply a certain amount of pressure on the shifter (as I come out of 2nd) and when wheel speed is right, it goes in. This "certain amount of pressure" is hard to describe, but it's not much....don't want to break anything in there $$

    At these speeds, I don't think double-clutching enters into it, but I will "brake tap" to bring down my wheel speed to ease getting into 1st.
     
  16. May 2, 2009 at 10:45 AM
    #16
    bluejays

    bluejays [OP] Well-Known Member

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    hello, thanks for the help. sorry, i am kind of new to stick shifting. why do you go into 2 first before 1 from neutral? can you explain what you do when the clutch goes in and out from neutral? why is it wrong to go from neutral to 1st?
     
  17. May 2, 2009 at 2:52 PM
    #17
    jflan

    jflan Well-Known Member

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    I don't have a scientific answer, other than it seems to cooridinate the gears on the 1st/2nd rail in the trans and it will go into 1st at a higher wheel speed.
    Maybe in a back door sort of way it is "rev-matching" which is a term you will hear when folks talk about double-clutching.

    Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean here other than the clutch isn't going "in and out from neutral".

    I wouldn't say that it's wrong, it's just easier for me to coax the Aisin 5 speed into 1st when I briefly move the shifter into 2nd before going for 1st.
    As I said, I can get into 1st at a higher wheel speed when I do this and after a half-million miles with these Aisins I don't even think about it....I just do it.
     
  18. May 3, 2009 at 4:19 PM
    #18
    wawireguy

    wawireguy Well-Known Member

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    You can go from neutral to first.. or any gear besides reverse for that matter while you're rolling. What you describe is normal. My taco does it also. I just double clutch it and slip it into first as I see fit.
     
  19. May 3, 2009 at 8:38 PM
    #19
    bluejays

    bluejays [OP] Well-Known Member

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    i was wondering if you can explain double clutch. what are the exact steps? i want to go and practice your method because I hear a lot of people doing that as well. can you start explaining from when i am in neutral, no gas or clutch in, i am just rolling at 3mph. what now?
     
  20. May 3, 2009 at 8:42 PM
    #20
    98tacoma27

    98tacoma27 is gooder 'en chicken Moderator

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    Double-clutching is usually reserved for those driving trucks or high performance racing cars, but anyone with a manual transmission can perform this simple feat.

    For most manual transmission drivers, the act of shifting gears is a straightforward one. First the clutch is depressed, then the shifter is thrown into the next gear, and finally the clutch is released putting the car back into gear. All of this is usually done without thinking, at least after some practice.

    But double clutching adds a third step into the mix. The shifter, rather than going straight to the next gear, makes a stop in neutral and then the clutch is released. This is to allow the engine to slow down (or with a tap on the gas, speed up when downshifting) so the transition into the next gear is much more smooth. The driver then depresses the clutch again and completes the shift into the target gear, and finally the clutch is released again, putting the car back into gear. It only takes a split second for the engine speed to match the speed of the gears, so the entire action is done very quickly as a fluid sequence of events.
     
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